☞ Political and Religious Discussions are Not Tolerated in this Group ☜
TalkThe Green Dragon
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1clamairy
This issue is no longer open for debate. We did that over a decade ago.
If you desire political discourse, go here:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/3187/Pro-and-Con
Have a burning desire to debate religious issues? Head over to one of these:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/11981/Lets-Talk-Religion
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/640/Happy-Heathens
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/317/Faith-and-Reason
When you are reviewing a book with political or religious content it is acceptable to state the issues central to the book and say whether or not it is to your liking. It is not acceptable to state you'd like to harm someone with differing viewpoints or ideological background, call them names or wish them ill.
If you desire political discourse, go here:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/3187/Pro-and-Con
Have a burning desire to debate religious issues? Head over to one of these:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/11981/Lets-Talk-Religion
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/640/Happy-Heathens
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/317/Faith-and-Reason
When you are reviewing a book with political or religious content it is acceptable to state the issues central to the book and say whether or not it is to your liking. It is not acceptable to state you'd like to harm someone with differing viewpoints or ideological background, call them names or wish them ill.
2MrsLee
Nicely stated, thank you. I was wondering last night if a pinned topic would be the way to go since the new design messed up the home page view.
It might not help for those who post directly from the "Talk" page without going to the home page, but then they can always be redirected here. :)
It might not help for those who post directly from the "Talk" page without going to the home page, but then they can always be redirected here. :)
3pgmcc
>1 clamairy: what, >2 MrsLee: said.
4haydninvienna
Yes. Nicely put.
5YouKneeK
>1 clamairy: Although I wasn’t here a decade ago when this decision was made, this rule is one of the things I like best about the Green Dragon. Aside from the people, of course. ;)
7MrAndrew
Are the pointy fingers in the topic title due to the pin? They powerfully remind me of Monty Python.
10BookstoogeLT
Was checking out another group and clicked on the GD. I must say, these pinned posts really stand out. I actually like this change at LT.
11clamairy
>10 BookstoogeLT: I like it, too. It's implementation was long overdue. The only problem with it is that a good chunk of members use Talk to view threads, and don't visit individual groups.
12Sakerfalcon
>11 clamairy: Hopefully new people will see it when they click on the group page to join and get the message then - it is nice and clear at least.
13BookstoogeLT
>11 clamairy: Yep, a learning curve for established members :-)
15timspalding
Saruman is nice to us orcs, but I don't think he really has our interests at heart.
16clamairy
Tim! Long time no see! (Well, in this group anyway.) Thank you for the pinning feature, BTW.
17MrAndrew
>15 timspalding: you're just drinking the Gandalf kool-aid.
18JasonHubbard
Okay ... even though some of the best fantasy books are about politics/religion. Oh well, touchy subject all around.
19clamairy
>18 JasonHubbard: You can discuss it in the context of a piece of literature. Just tread carefully.
20pgmcc
No politics or religion to be discussed on the premises.
A request from the denizens of The Green Dragon Pub.
When I joined The Green Dragon Pub group in 2006 I interacted with one of the founders about the purpose of the group. While the introduction on the Group Page describes the genre nature of the group clearly, what is not so clearly stated is one of the key, if not the key, driving purpose for setting up the group as expressed to me in discussion.
This purpose was to provide an on-line forum where people could get away from the aggression and flame wars found on so many on-line fora, and that was experienced by many people in other threads on LibraryThing. The purpose was to let people of different backgrounds sit down together and discuss books and other topics in a convivial and harmonious environment where the things that made them different were left outside the door of the pub, rather than be brought inside where they could cause argument and viciousness. It was agreed that politics and religion were topics that can easily cause disagreement and cause unfortunate exchanges in discussions. The opinion was that there are plenty of fora and LT threads dedicated to the discussion of religion or politics and that The Green Dragon would benefit from leaving those topics outside. The business of The Green Dragon was convivial conversation, books, cheese, and quaffing ale/wine/gin/milk/water/PGGBs/tea /coffee/Guinness, and whatever you’re having yourself.
This resonated with me. I grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland, during what is described as The Troubles, or the Norther Ireland Conflict . Northern Ireland was, and to a big extent still is, a divided community where politics and religion triggered great violence and caused many deaths. Like most people from Northern Ireland I lost friends and connections to that conflict. Thankfully I was one of the lucky ones who grew up in a mixed area and had friends and neighbours from both sides of the community, and was not sucked into active participation in the violence.
My father was a publican. He owned a pub in the centre of Belfast and he had a mixed clientele with many regular customers from both sides of the community. In my discussion with the founder of this group I mentioned that my father ran his pub in a very strict fashion, and that he had a golden rule, that all his regular customers agreed to: “No politics or religion to be discussed on the premises.” The founder liked this and decided to adopt it for The Green Dragon.
Over the years many people have joined this group and have had great times here. I know I have benefitted greatly from getting to know people from across The World and exchanging ideas and discussing books, and sharing the good times and the bad times. These are people of different backgrounds to myself, people who would hold beliefs that differ from mine, people who differ in their political affiliations, have different sexual preferences and gender identities, people with different ethnic backgrounds, and who all enjoy and benefit from the chance to discuss books and other topics while setting aside any differences they might have outside the pub.
With the arrival of new members there appears to have been some misinterpretation by some individuals of what the “No politics or religion to be discussed on the premises” request means. Let me be clear that the purpose of this rule/request, is to protect us all from the horror of arguments and disagreements that cause so much pain and hurt to people in other groups and fora. It is not a war on religion.
If someone feels one of their beliefs is being attacked or challenged, they will experience that as an attack on their very identity. That is not the purpose of this request.
There has been some confusion about the practical implications of this rule in terms of people discussing the contents of books that may have political or religious content, as so many history books and historical fiction books will have.
To clarify this for people I will present my interpretation of the rule/request and its implications for a number of things.
Firstly, it is promoting or arguing about politics/religion that annoys people, and puts them on the defence. That is the type of thing the rule/request is intended to avoid, and is probably something everyone would agree with. There are plenty of fora, both within LT and beyond, for such discussions and people who want to participate in such discussions should do so in those fora.
Secondly, if someone is reading a book on a religious topic, e.g. a book on the history of the Catholic Church, I would consider it a valid comment in The Green Dragon to describe the contents of the book as long as the poster does not slip into either promoting or denigrating religious beliefs. There will be a thin line to watch while writing a post on such a book.
Thirdly, humour. I learned a good lesson from a friend when I was at university. He was studying Scholastic Philosophy and he was writing a dissertation on humour. One of his findings was that most jokes have a victim. That piece of information has helped me when deciding whether to tell or post jokes, and it has shaped my sense of humour. Jokes with victims hurt people who are that victim, or who identify with that victim. It would be better if people refrain from posting jokes with victims. As stated above, The Green Dragon is for everyone and it is very likely that someone in The Green Dragon identifies with the victim.
My friend did tell me his favourite non-victim joke. It is a piece of graffiti: ”Roget’s Thesaurus Rules, Reigns, Sovereigns, Domains, Runs, Governs, Administrates, Controls, Directs…”
Fourthly, greetings for religious festivals can cause offence. Offence is often taken when the offending statement was not intended to be offensive. Growing up in Northern Ireland at a time when the vast majority of the population was Christian (as exemplified by The Troubles), “Happy Christmas”, was a greeting that no one could take offence from. It was meant as a, “Good wishes”, and no one objected.
As I grew up and had more experiences, and met different people, and as social media put me in touch with people from different backgrounds and different parts of The World, I became aware that some of my non-Christian friends felt uncomfortable when someone wished them “Happy Christmas”. While no offence was meant they felt their identity was being chipped away at as they felt they were being assumed to be Christian.
While it is still cool to wish people “Happy Christmas” in some places, there are parts of the world where the Christian origin of the phrase does make people uncomfortable, and it has even become tangled up in politics in some parts of the world.
In greeting people at festive seasons it is good to be sensitive to the background of the people you are greeting. Some people have used phrases such as, “Happy Christmas to those that celebrate it, and best wishes to everyone else.” That is perfect.
I have just used Christmas purely as an example. I know it is one that has generated debate, but the same principles go for any festive season when posting greetings.
By the way, if anyone wishes me a “Happy (insert any religious festival from any belief system)” I will say, “Thank you! Many happy returns.” I will not take offence but will interpret it as someone wishing me well. Having friends from several Christian churches, the Jewish faith, Islam, Hinduism, pagan groups, and of no religious belief, I get a lot of greetings at different times of the year.
In summary, the moratorium on discussing Religious or Political topics is to protect the civility of the discussion in The Green Dragon and to protect the wellbeing of its occupants. It would be a shame to see an initiative that was intended to help people get away from aggression and flame wars being the cause of aggression and flame wars.
Be excellent to each other!
A request from the denizens of The Green Dragon Pub.
When I joined The Green Dragon Pub group in 2006 I interacted with one of the founders about the purpose of the group. While the introduction on the Group Page describes the genre nature of the group clearly, what is not so clearly stated is one of the key, if not the key, driving purpose for setting up the group as expressed to me in discussion.
This purpose was to provide an on-line forum where people could get away from the aggression and flame wars found on so many on-line fora, and that was experienced by many people in other threads on LibraryThing. The purpose was to let people of different backgrounds sit down together and discuss books and other topics in a convivial and harmonious environment where the things that made them different were left outside the door of the pub, rather than be brought inside where they could cause argument and viciousness. It was agreed that politics and religion were topics that can easily cause disagreement and cause unfortunate exchanges in discussions. The opinion was that there are plenty of fora and LT threads dedicated to the discussion of religion or politics and that The Green Dragon would benefit from leaving those topics outside. The business of The Green Dragon was convivial conversation, books, cheese, and quaffing ale/wine/gin/milk/water/PGGBs/tea /coffee/Guinness, and whatever you’re having yourself.
This resonated with me. I grew up in Belfast, Northern Ireland, during what is described as The Troubles, or the Norther Ireland Conflict . Northern Ireland was, and to a big extent still is, a divided community where politics and religion triggered great violence and caused many deaths. Like most people from Northern Ireland I lost friends and connections to that conflict. Thankfully I was one of the lucky ones who grew up in a mixed area and had friends and neighbours from both sides of the community, and was not sucked into active participation in the violence.
My father was a publican. He owned a pub in the centre of Belfast and he had a mixed clientele with many regular customers from both sides of the community. In my discussion with the founder of this group I mentioned that my father ran his pub in a very strict fashion, and that he had a golden rule, that all his regular customers agreed to: “No politics or religion to be discussed on the premises.” The founder liked this and decided to adopt it for The Green Dragon.
Over the years many people have joined this group and have had great times here. I know I have benefitted greatly from getting to know people from across The World and exchanging ideas and discussing books, and sharing the good times and the bad times. These are people of different backgrounds to myself, people who would hold beliefs that differ from mine, people who differ in their political affiliations, have different sexual preferences and gender identities, people with different ethnic backgrounds, and who all enjoy and benefit from the chance to discuss books and other topics while setting aside any differences they might have outside the pub.
With the arrival of new members there appears to have been some misinterpretation by some individuals of what the “No politics or religion to be discussed on the premises” request means. Let me be clear that the purpose of this rule/request, is to protect us all from the horror of arguments and disagreements that cause so much pain and hurt to people in other groups and fora. It is not a war on religion.
If someone feels one of their beliefs is being attacked or challenged, they will experience that as an attack on their very identity. That is not the purpose of this request.
There has been some confusion about the practical implications of this rule in terms of people discussing the contents of books that may have political or religious content, as so many history books and historical fiction books will have.
To clarify this for people I will present my interpretation of the rule/request and its implications for a number of things.
Firstly, it is promoting or arguing about politics/religion that annoys people, and puts them on the defence. That is the type of thing the rule/request is intended to avoid, and is probably something everyone would agree with. There are plenty of fora, both within LT and beyond, for such discussions and people who want to participate in such discussions should do so in those fora.
Secondly, if someone is reading a book on a religious topic, e.g. a book on the history of the Catholic Church, I would consider it a valid comment in The Green Dragon to describe the contents of the book as long as the poster does not slip into either promoting or denigrating religious beliefs. There will be a thin line to watch while writing a post on such a book.
Thirdly, humour. I learned a good lesson from a friend when I was at university. He was studying Scholastic Philosophy and he was writing a dissertation on humour. One of his findings was that most jokes have a victim. That piece of information has helped me when deciding whether to tell or post jokes, and it has shaped my sense of humour. Jokes with victims hurt people who are that victim, or who identify with that victim. It would be better if people refrain from posting jokes with victims. As stated above, The Green Dragon is for everyone and it is very likely that someone in The Green Dragon identifies with the victim.
My friend did tell me his favourite non-victim joke. It is a piece of graffiti: ”Roget’s Thesaurus Rules, Reigns, Sovereigns, Domains, Runs, Governs, Administrates, Controls, Directs…”
Fourthly, greetings for religious festivals can cause offence. Offence is often taken when the offending statement was not intended to be offensive. Growing up in Northern Ireland at a time when the vast majority of the population was Christian (as exemplified by The Troubles), “Happy Christmas”, was a greeting that no one could take offence from. It was meant as a, “Good wishes”, and no one objected.
As I grew up and had more experiences, and met different people, and as social media put me in touch with people from different backgrounds and different parts of The World, I became aware that some of my non-Christian friends felt uncomfortable when someone wished them “Happy Christmas”. While no offence was meant they felt their identity was being chipped away at as they felt they were being assumed to be Christian.
While it is still cool to wish people “Happy Christmas” in some places, there are parts of the world where the Christian origin of the phrase does make people uncomfortable, and it has even become tangled up in politics in some parts of the world.
In greeting people at festive seasons it is good to be sensitive to the background of the people you are greeting. Some people have used phrases such as, “Happy Christmas to those that celebrate it, and best wishes to everyone else.” That is perfect.
I have just used Christmas purely as an example. I know it is one that has generated debate, but the same principles go for any festive season when posting greetings.
By the way, if anyone wishes me a “Happy (insert any religious festival from any belief system)” I will say, “Thank you! Many happy returns.” I will not take offence but will interpret it as someone wishing me well. Having friends from several Christian churches, the Jewish faith, Islam, Hinduism, pagan groups, and of no religious belief, I get a lot of greetings at different times of the year.
In summary, the moratorium on discussing Religious or Political topics is to protect the civility of the discussion in The Green Dragon and to protect the wellbeing of its occupants. It would be a shame to see an initiative that was intended to help people get away from aggression and flame wars being the cause of aggression and flame wars.
Be excellent to each other!
21clamairy
>20 pgmcc: Many thanks for this. I have shared a link to it in the joke thread.
22narvik
I added librarything on my tablet and stumbled across this group while exploring the site. This seems like a wonderful match but I am unsure of protocol for a new member to register?I guess for lack of a better word. I am hesitant to intrude
23pgmcc
>22 narvik: Hi, narvik. If you go to the Group page you can read the description of the group. If you want to join then use the "Join Group" button on the top right of that page.
We do have a good time here, and we generally avoid any of the nastiness witnessed elsewhere on the Internet. As you have discovered, we do try to protect our civility with a few guidelines. If someone breaches the guidelines they generally get a polite message from one of the admins pointing out the issue.
We do have a good time here, and we generally avoid any of the nastiness witnessed elsewhere on the Internet. As you have discovered, we do try to protect our civility with a few guidelines. If someone breaches the guidelines they generally get a polite message from one of the admins pointing out the issue.
24clamairy
>22 narvik: I will send you invite! You are not intruding. There are over 4000 members. You can come and go as you please.
26pgmcc
>25 narvik: Welcome aboard. I hope you enjoy the pub. By the way, the Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster is the most popular cocktail here. You will see it referred to as a PGGB. Oh, and cheese. We like cheese.
27narvik
I should mention, I'm better at observing than commenting so I may not say much cheese is good. I like cheese
28cindydavid4
>20 pgmcc: yes; excellent clarification.
29WholeHouseLibrary
Gotta say... haven't see a food fight in a good long while. In a new thread, please.
30humouress
>26 pgmcc: Is that what a PGGB is? You’ll have to remind me again later.
31pgmcc
>30 humouress:
Perhaps you will have one to help remember. I had trouble remembering for a while. Now that I have read The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy I have found it easier to remember.
Perhaps you will have one to help remember. I had trouble remembering for a while. Now that I have read The Hitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy I have found it easier to remember.
32humouress
>31 pgmcc: I happen to have acquired The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy fairly recently. Moving it up the TBR pile.
33Bookmarque
But be warned that PGGBs are the alcoholic equivalent of a mugging.
34humouress
>33 Bookmarque: Alrighty! I mean, um, thanks.
35clamairy
Now I want to try one. Here's a recipe with I high rating I found while Googling. (Any vodka will do, I'm sure.)
37Meredy
>35 clamairy: "Freshly grounded," haha. It sounds lethal, in any case. Anything that calls for a lot of pepper does.
38clamairy
>37 Meredy: Ha! I didn't even notice that...
39WholeHouseLibrary
Well yeah, of course freshly grounded black pepper!
Believe me, you don't ever want to have a charge of that stuff go off in your face. I'm not sure I'll ever recover, and I was just collateral damage.
Believe me, you don't ever want to have a charge of that stuff go off in your face. I'm not sure I'll ever recover, and I was just collateral damage.
40Karlstar
Just bumping this up so it will be seen. >20 pgmcc: is a great explanation of why we have these rules.
42clamairy
Ditto what I said here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/177029#7994452
43oldthoughts
Group admin has removed this message.
44gilroy
>43 oldthoughts: That request is strictly for this group. Though other groups may contain similar requests.
Those who wish to discuss politics and religion are frequently found in Pro and Con:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/3187/Pro-and-Con
Or I believe Let's Talk Religion
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/11981/Lets-Talk-Religion
Those who wish to discuss politics and religion are frequently found in Pro and Con:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/3187/Pro-and-Con
Or I believe Let's Talk Religion
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/11981/Lets-Talk-Religion
45ZephyrusBlue
Do LGBTQ+ topics count as politics? I didn't see anything on it in this thread, so I wanted to make sure.
46fuzzi
>45 ZephyrusBlue: here are groups that might interest you:
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/search/lgbt
https://www.librarything.com/ngroups/search/lgbt
47reconditereader
I would guess (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) that something like "I want to read more LGBTQ+ books, any suggestions?" would be fine. Something like "I want to talk about legislation that affects LGBTQ+ people" is probably outside the scope of this group.
48clamairy
>47 reconditereader: That's exactly right! Any of the books of that nature you want to discuss can be mentioned, or praised or panned, but parsing the politics or religious significance of any LGBTQ issues should be avoided.
49pgmcc
>47 reconditereader:
I would agree. If someone wants to comment on the contents of a book without proselytising or making a political statement, then no one can object to that.
The idea behind not wanting political or religious discussion was to avoid arguments and rows in the GD group. There are plenty of other fora in which such arguments and rows exist. The people who set up the GD set it up to give people a refuge away from on-line flaming and arguments. GD was envisioned as a pub where people would talk about books and other topics while keeping their differences out of the pub. Everyone is welcome in the tavern, and we hope that everyone can relax and enjoy their visits.
I would agree. If someone wants to comment on the contents of a book without proselytising or making a political statement, then no one can object to that.
The idea behind not wanting political or religious discussion was to avoid arguments and rows in the GD group. There are plenty of other fora in which such arguments and rows exist. The people who set up the GD set it up to give people a refuge away from on-line flaming and arguments. GD was envisioned as a pub where people would talk about books and other topics while keeping their differences out of the pub. Everyone is welcome in the tavern, and we hope that everyone can relax and enjoy their visits.
50clamairy
>49 pgmcc: Well said, as usual.
53gilroy
>52 humouress: And if you're dressed in armor, you come in your own personal roasting pan.
55HannaShkaieva
Hi!
56Karlstar
>55 HannaShkaieva: HI, pick a thread and say hi, or start one of your own. This is not the best thread for that, this one is not really for conversation.
57catlover73 
This member has been suspended from the site.
