Rings of Power discussion thread

A thread to discuss the new Tolkien TV series, Rings of Power, on Amazon.

3 episodes are out at this point, please put spoilers from the show under spoiler tags.

So far I love it.

>1 Karlstar: Thank you, Jim!

>2 Melinapm: Me, too. I have some quibbles, but they are small. It is so beautiful to look at, and both the music and the acting are wonderful.

I'm enjoying it so far, but episode 3 confused me a bit. I can't place where they are in the story, hopefully that will be cleared up in the next installment or two.

>4 Karlstar: Do you mean what year of the Second Age?

I watched the first half-hour of the first episode and stopped. My wife and son are heading to the US for ten days starting Wednesday. I suspect I may resume watching on Wednesday evening. :-) If the weather is bad at the weekend I may watch more.

I watched the first two episodes and enjoyed them, without being blown away by them. I haven't continued yet because I'm finishing up listening to The Return of the King and appendices first. Also getting out my atlas of Middle Earth because I get a bit lost in the show. It may be that I will continue to do so, because of story changes, etc. But hopefully a little less lost, and I will know when the show is deviating when I refresh my memory. I don't mind deviations, I just like to know what they are.

I have watched the first two episodes and my thoughts echo MrsLee's - I enjoyed them but not blown away. It's good enough to keep watching. I also went in with really low expectations based on the travesty that Wheel of Time turned out to be lol

>5 clamairy: Yes, sometimes it seems early in the 2nd Age, sometimes later.

>7 MrsLee: >8 Narilka: Same here, I know it will be different, I'm trying not to expect too much, but I would like to see it follow the story, at least somewhat!

>8 Narilka: I'm hoping season 2 will be better, but after the hash they made of the final episode, not much.

>6 pgmcc:
True to my anticipation, I did return to The Rings of Power on Wednesday evening. I watched the rest of episode one and the whole of episode 2. Like >7 MrsLee: & >8 Narilka:, I enjoyed them but was not blown away. It is well done and I am going to watch the rest of the episodes. I like the humour tied into the story, usually through the characterisation and the interaction between characters.

I have to confess I approached the show with the concept, "WHY?" My view on this is, "Because someone wanted to make money." They are doing it well, so fair dues to them. It is dreadful when someone makes a show simply to capitalise on the popularity of an original story and then they make a poor job of it.

In an other thread, I think it was the one that germinated the idea of starting this thread, someone (it may have been you >1 Karlstar:) mentioned the Irish accents and wondered how good they were. When I started watching the series I spotted the Irish accents but thought it was someone with an Irish accent trying to hide it. As an Irish person who is hypersensitive to "Stage-Irish" accents that create the same feeling as hearing steel fingernails being scraped down a blackboard, I found the accents well acceptable; in fact, good. Where these characters obtained their Irish accents I have no idea, but using real accents as a distinguishing feature between groups is a good idea, and I think it is well done in The Rings of Power. I love Lenny Henry's character and his accent is perfect.

As for the Scottish accents, I will defer to any Scottish LTers to comment, and all I will say is, that as someone of Scottish descent, who has many Scottish relatives and friends, has heard many Scottish accents, has been to Scotland many times, and who loves Scotland, I found the dwarves' accents spot-on.

>10 pgmcc: I can't find that discussion, there's very little on my thread about the show, except the question about whether we needed a thread!

Good to know the accents are good. Supposedly this exists because Jeff Bezos really wanted his own series that would be a successful as Game of Thrones. I don't think this show is going to achieve that level of viewer or cultural success. We'll see.

So far while it is using Middle-Earth SA places and a few of the people and they are showing us that the rings are coming, it seems a muddled mess.

>11 Karlstar: People who hadn't read any of the Games on Thrones books felt that way about the HBO series, too. It wasn't until several seasons in that they started to see the threads coming together.

>12 clamairy: True! Even reading the books it was hard to keep all the guys in black fur cloaks straight!

Don't read if you haven't watched episode 3!
So if Pharazon is going to be Ar-Pharazon, hasn't a whole bunch of stuff happened that they just skipped over? The rings were already made something like 1500 years previously!

For anyone interested in a deeper dive that includes spoilers:

https://www.tor.com/2022/09/14/concerning-harfoots-and-elves-men-dwarves-and-orc...

>13 Karlstar: I'm trying to ignore stuff like in your spoiler. It confused me, but of course my brain keeps jumping to it.

I very much like the Harfoot part of the tail.

>10 pgmcc: Are you speaking of humor with the Harfeet? Because I have been lamenting the lack of humor! I accepted it because having read The Silmarillion I realize how dark this time was.

Also, as to the why, yes, someone wants to make a bazillion dollars (or whatever currency) but I also think of all the actors, crew, makeup folks, etc. who might just consider this the best time they've ever had. Perhaps more than a few who love the stories.

>14 MrsLee:
I have never succeeded in getting very far with The Silmarillion.

The humour was mostly with the Harfeet now that you come to mention it.

Yes, the benefit to the actors and other participants to the making of the show is to be welcomed. Having a daughter who had a ten year career in the theatre business, I can appreciate the benefit to individuals in the industry.

>14 MrsLee: I'm trying to ignore it, but it isn't working. Hopefully the rest of the season will make me forget it.

I am glad I have not read The Silmarillion as I am not irritated by discrepancies between the book and Amazon's The Rings of Power. Had I read The Silmarillion, and been keenly aware of the lore and mythology within, I would be trying to put that out of my mind and judge The Rings of Power on its own merits.

Thanks to the article link Jim provided in >13 Karlstar:, I am now aware there are differences, but, in the audience definition provided in that article, I can identify as the target audience, i.e. people who have not developed a deep knowledge of the history and mythology of the written tales, and so can watch the show and enjoy it without irritation.

Thanks to Umberto Eco's great book, Mouse or Rat: Translation as Negotiation, I have acquired the approach of looking at a screen adaptation of a book as something separate from the book, and so I try to judge each enterprise on its own merits rather than being bothered by the differences between them. (That doesn't always work; they totally messed up Ted Chiang's "Arrival" story in the screen adaption. They made a total mess of the underlying essence of the story. They extracted the most powerful element of the tale.)

Breathe, Peter. Breathe.

What I am trying to say is, I am quite enjoying The Rings of Power. I am using my powers of suspended disbelief when totally silly things, like someone jumps ship with the intention of swimming across an ocean, happen, but when we are dealing with a story that contains magic and other great powers, along side mythical creatures and beasts conjured up in the imagination of a fiction writer, it is not a big ask to indulge in such suspension of disbelief.

>17 pgmcc: To clarify, I'm not sure the show is based on The Silmarillion, but on the appendices at the back of The Return of the King. I should not have mentioned the former, but its tone does seem to match, and of course some of the tales overlap. I haven't read the details of the production much, but the last I heard, the Tolkien estate had not release The Silmarillion rights to anyone.

>18 MrsLee: Thank you for the clarification.

>13 Karlstar: That is a VERY long article. I like it a lot, but now I'm going to be late for work and I haven't even finished it. :/

>20 MrsLee: I am glad to see you have your priorities set appropriately.

>18 MrsLee: I hears they are actually forbidden to use anything that is only mentioned in the Silmarillion, and must stick entirely to The Lord of the Rings. (Which thankfully includes not just the appendices, but anything mentioned in the books that relates to the Second Age. I think Gandalf does a fair amount of that.)

>17 pgmcc: That whole thing with Galadriel being 'awarded' a free, one-way trip to Valinor just felt wrong.

>20 MrsLee: Glad you enjoyed it, I thought it was well written.

>22 clamairy: This is a good point! They can use anything in The Hobbit or LoTR, but nothing else, if I understand properly.

I tried to watch episode 4 tonight, but it kept freezing up so I didn't finish. I would like to have the opening credits as a screensaver video.

A minor beef. The people of Numenor. They are supposed to be extraordinary. 6'4" and taller, grave and perilous. So far in this show they are cheap, small-minded and dumpy for the most part. It makes me sad.

>24 MrsLee: We were able to watch it, but I agree with you.

>24 MrsLee: Well, they are in their decline, aren't they?

>23 Karlstar: I'm pretty sure I just read somewhere last week that she was offered that very trip and declined. I'll see if I can find it....

"She had no role in the major wars of the First Age, believing that defeating Morgoth was beyond the power of the Eldar; when Morgoth was defeated by the coming of the Valar out of the West she, having played no part in the earlier Kinslaying, was offered safe return to Valinor. However, she chose not to leave Middle-earth, and was the only leader of the Ñoldor exiles to remain after the First Age." That's from the One Wiki to rule them all website, but I saw it somewhere else too.

>26 clamairy: You are absolutely correct, I read that too, which makes that whole trip in the show even more out of character.

Its almost like they haven't read the books...
This ragtag bunch of ruffians is supposed to be so impressive Sauron surrenders without a fight! Even in decline, they are supposed to be more impressive than other mortals, though I guess they are, but its a low bar.

>27 Karlstar: Which ruffians are you taking about? I'm assuming it's been a quite a while since the end of the first age, at this point.

>26 clamairy: Even in the Third Age, in Gondor, they were noticeably different from the men around them. If the production could do such a great job with the tiny Harfoots, I was hoping they would do the same with the Numinorians, that's all.

>29 MrsLee: Understood.

Have you folks watched the 4th episode yet?

I have.

Me. I loved it!

Going to be back later (or tomorrow) with a chunk of text behind spoiler tags for the timeline discussion.

We are up to #3. Husband is traveling a lot so we can only watch in spates. He'll be back on Thursday for a few days then off again. Hopefully we can get a few more episodes in. Despite its basically ludicrous plot (such as it is) it's beautiful to watch.

>33 clamairy: I'm looking forward to your post, but now I'm trying to remember what happened in the episode.

I did some Googling about the timeline and it is indeed VERY compressed, with stuff that happened in the middle of the second age now happening near the end so that we don't have 15 (or more) rulers of Númenor come and go before the interesting stuff starts to happen.

I took pics of the timeline from the appendices to show my kids, so I might as well use them here. I tried to add them to the post, but they were clearly visible even behind the tags, so I am just using links instead.

Sauron hasn't even shmoozed with humans & elves enough to start forging the rings with the yet, like he needs to.

https://pics.cdn.librarything.com//picsizes/ed/d3/edd3a3e3bf63d5a636b4d2b3241426...

But this guy is already alive and the Chancellor of Númenor:

https://pics.cdn.librarything.com//picsizes/3d/7d/3d7db6302a06be1636b6f2b3241426...

When he shouldn't even be alive yet.

https://pics.cdn.librarything.com//picsizes/08/e7/08e79867883a066636b672b3241426...

I'm just going with it, as I had such low expectations for this series that it's ended up being quite delightful for me. Except for that Warg, that looks like it's part Puggle or something...

>36 clamairy: I gotta say, the show really got me at the beginning of episode 4. I thought, WTF! That is too much compression! I was relieved, and a little irritated (because dream visions always irritate me) when she came out of it. You can tell I'm caught up in the show, because my language is deteriorating. When you hear me sputtering over here because I can't articulate at all, you will know they've gone too far.

>38 MrsLee: HAHA! I figured it had to be a dream. I am still enjoying it so much more than Blood of the Dragon, and the fact I am now three episodes behind on that HBO series proves it. (While I have watched all four episodes of Rings at least twice so far.)

>36 clamairy: Their messing with the timeline is messing with my head when I watch the show.
>37 MrsLee: You are asking for way too much from Hollywood these days. Why would they show a functioning relationship?

Did they show Celeborn in the LoTR movies? I'm wondering if they'll think people will be confused about her relationship status.

>39 clamairy: We were almost ready to give up on House of the Dragon, but this week's episode dragged us right back in.

>40 Karlstar: Yes, he was in the movies, but not given the significance he had in the books.

>40 Karlstar: He was in the movies and he had about two lines of dialogue.

>42 clamairy: & >40 Karlstar: He was definitely in the books though, so they have access to some of his history and his existence. We need someone to make a spinoff for all the forgotten characters.

>43 MrsLee: Fatty Bolger!

>44 clamairy: :) Yes. I like that you named him before Tom Bombadil. Tom contributed very little to the story, except his own mystery, but others who were forgotten were really important. Fingolfin (was that the elf who met Aragorn and the Hobbits and helped Frodo escape the black riders? I do get his name mixed up with all the other Fins) had several important parts (given to the she-elf, Arwen, in the movies).

>45 MrsLee: That was Glorfindel. Remember they replaced him with Arwen.

>41 MrsLee: >42 clamairy: Guess I need to watch the movies again! Maybe they'll introduce him later, since they don't seem to care about sticking to the timeline at all.

>46 Karlstar: When he shows up he'd better not be wearing velour, like *cough* certain other elves seem to be.

>47 clamairy: I just don't want him to be a milk-toast character. That word is probably spelled differently, but I don't have time to look it up.

>48 MrsLee: LOL Yes, I think there's a 'q' in there... But I hear you. He was a cardboard cutout in the films, unfortunately.

Milquetoast.

It's silly, but fun.

I have just watched Episode 5.

>51 pgmcc: We'll likely catch up with that one on Tuesday.

>48 MrsLee: If I recall, Celeborn didn't do much that was noteworthy, other than being very old?

We're done. 6 episodes and nothing is happening. OMG people wasted this much money on this? Think of the good that might have been done if he'd donated to some worthy charities instead. Oy vey.

>53 Bookmarque: It's still very pretty.

>50 Bookmarque: A five vowel word. No wonder I can't spell it.

Traveling this weekend, so I'll be late watching episode... whatever one was this Friday. I thought it was 4?

>52 Karlstar: My sister has no LotR source for me to look in, but he was mentioned with honor in the appendices, have to wait until I get home to check so I don't get the why of it wrong.

>55 MrsLee: They just released the 5th episode.

>55 MrsLee: We watched it last night. I guess they drop at midnight, so the next episode is available in 40 minutes.

They are just making it up out now.

>58 MrsLee: They are, and not in a good way, in my opinion. Why, why couldn't they stick to the basic concepts in the source material?? What the heck!

>59 Karlstar: I could live with a compressed timeline, or even a timeline out of order, and a never before seen character or two, like the ork father, but Galadriel's character is way off base IMO, and the king elf also. Hrmmf. I still like the pretty scenery, but am getting so annoyed with the baseness of the characters that I don't know how much longer I will watch.

I suppose I was spoiled by Tolkien and Peter Jackson, because their elves were very "other" and the characters of the men were clearly bad or good, except Boromir who happened to have failings, but was very heroic as well. One of my favorite characters. Somehow, the Numenorians in this come across as petty and small people. I imagine them as fearsome above all else, not safe, not mere men.

>60 MrsLee: They certainly have room to make up a lot of things, like the king of the Southlands, I'm fine with that, but there are a couple of very basic things they are altering in the last 2 episodes. I'm not a fan of the portrayal of Gil-Galad. I know there's very little source to go on, but he certainly seems more like a human politician than an immortal elf leader.

Interesting. I am still enjoying it quite a bit, but as I stated before, I went into this with my expectations in the basement. (Or perhaps even lower.)

Sometimes it pays to be a pessimist! :o)

I have enjoyed it. I have not been as knowledgeable of the original material and this has helped me enjoy the episodes to date.

>62 clamairy: >63 pgmcc: Have you both seen episode 6?

I've seen everything so far, yes. I actually liked this last episode quite a bit. Don't shoot me for taking my nerd pleasure where I can. I still like it sooo much better than House of the Dragon.

>65 clamairy: Just asking so I'd know what might be a spoiler and what might not.

>64 Karlstar: Yes, I have seen episode 6. We benefit from the time difference with it dropping here at least five hours before it arrives in the US. Not that I sit up and watch it at midnight. I tend to watch it about 5:30pm when I finish work. Given it drops on Fridays, I might stop work a little earlier than that.

One friend commented on how realistic the volcano was.

>66 Karlstar: Gotcha! Thank you for clarifying.

Has anyone else had trouble watching on Fridays? Two weeks in a row now I start to watch and the show freezes about 10 minutes in. If I wait until Sunday or Monday, no problems.

>65 clamairy: I would never shoot you for enjoying it! I think you are enjoying it more than I am, but so is my wife. I haven't given up on it yet.

>65 clamairy: I'm also glad others are enjoying it. I probably sound more critical than I mean to be, I'm disappointed at some of the writing choices and design, but I have never attempted such a production, nor will I ever. :)

I want the characters to stay in line with how they are portrayed in the book, and how the story was told in the movies (though the movies messed with some of the characters too, they didn't change the outcome).

I worry that they are trying to start a relationship between Galadriel and the king of the Southlands. It was an exception when elves and humans were attracted to each other, but the show seems to be making it the rule. They can do this because they have humanized the elves so much they seem to be human with pointy ears.

I found a review of episode 6, and basically all the episodes up to that, in The Guardian.

It is here: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/oct/04/tolkien-the-rings-of-power-...

I find it a good review.

>71 MrsLee: I agree with you, but for the sake of discussion, I think they are assuming that the vast majority of viewers either know nothing about Middle-Earth, or all they know they got from the movies. In which case, they just don't care that those who are familiar with the material notice all of their deviations. We're just too small of a minority?

The elves and mithril thing is just too much - unless this is some kind of plot by Gil-galad to get his hands on all the mithril, which is probably worse! The 'orcs are corrupt humans' idea is just as bad.

>73 Karlstar: You forgot about the third group of viewers, who knows all the details and don't care.

Well, I enjoyed the finale.

>75 pgmcc: Oh yeah. I did, too! I'm going to watch it a second time right away.

>74 clamairy: Not really, those folks still fall into the second group - those who know the material. I was trying to guess why they've gone in the direction they have, it isn't a comment on whether people should enjoy watching it or not.

>77 Karlstar:
I suspect it was for similar reasons as those that caused the character of the detective in the novel of The Exorcist to be excluded from the film; there would have been too much material to include the time they had for the screen adaptation.

On the plus side, they were able to use the detective’s character to launch a new TV show; Columbo.

>77 Karlstar: Sorry, I must have misunderstood what you were trying to say. It sounded to me like you were implying that anyone who knew the source material would be unhappy. JPB has had the same reaction you have. He can't suspend what he's knows (or believes) should be happening while watching this show. PJ's movies taught me how to compartmentalize in a case like this. I have the books stored in one part of my head, and the movies in another. There is some leakage, but I've mostly contained it.

>79 clamairy:
Right with you on the compartmentilisation.

We've finally watched up through episode 6. My biggest complaint is the elves not acting like elves. It bugs the crap out of me that they are just pointy eared humans. Where's the mystery and the magic??

Ep 6 is my favorite to date as it was a highly focused episode where things actually happen. It's also the first episode that felt epic to me. I'm assuming that we just witnessed the creation of Mount Doom. My memory of the history of this time is vague. They're pulling most of this from the appendixes after Return of the King, right?

General stuff I'm liking: The mystery behind the man who fell from the sky. They've done a great job being ambiguous on if he's a white wizard or an agent of shadow. I still don't know! :D Durin's character and the actor playing him. The actress playing Galadriel is doing great with the material they've given her. The Uruk. He's the only elf that actually acts other.

General stuff I don't like: Amazon is spending so much money they can't make a CGI warg that doesn't look like an evil chihuahua??? I don't like the actor for Elrond much. The elves are losing their light so they need mithril? Seriously?? A human love interest for Galadriel is stupid. Aren't women dwarves supposed to have beards?

And questions: Where is Celeborn? I'm not sure I understand where the hobbit story line is headed since the episode without them worked very well. Will we get to see the balrog awaken in a future season since the dwarves are delving deeply? Is the series supposed to end with the forging of the rings or with the corruption of the rings afterwards? Where is the elven magic?

Spoiler tagged everything just in case I'm not the only straggler :)

It might be hard to tell but my husband and I are enjoying it well enough as long as we don't think too hard about it. Like clam, trying to keep things compartmentalized.

>79 clamairy: Definitely not, that's just me! >80 pgmcc: I'm trying to compartmentalize! I've stopped myself several times from going back to the books in an attempt to do so.

>81 Narilka: I'm trying not to complain - but what you said!

I understand your quibbles, but Tolkien himself wasn't consistent, was he? The elves did not act much like the elves we know (and presumably love) in the book The Hobbit. And they may have been very noble, but they were also blood-crazed (many, not all) homicidal (elvicidal?) maniacs for much of The Silmarillion. Only Gil-Galad seems to have been given the glamorous camera angles and such, for this series.

One of my complaints is about the velour robes Celebrimbor has been wearing. They have improved, or maybe I've just gotten used to them.

>37 MrsLee: Celeborn, but yes! your point is excellent.

>84 david_c: I don't think they've shown Celeborn yet. Didn't Galadriel say he is MIA in the last episode?

>83 clamairy: That's true, elves have much of the same range of personalities as us frail humans, though most of the rash/violent/elvicidal ones died because of that very tendency in the First Age. The ones that were left were the ones interested in being caretakers of Middle-Earth, particularly Galadriel and Elrond. Mostly, not all, elves like Thranduil still existed.

I finally caught up and finished episode eight. It made up for most, if not all, of my complaints.

I didn't seriously suspect Halbrand (I stuck at names, hope I got that right) until he met the elven Smith (not even going to try spelling his name), even though I had him on my list of deceivers. Gandalf I knew. He had to be.

My main complaint was that no one seemed to be Sauron, doing the evil deceiving thing and guiding the elves to make their rings. Now I'm happy enough.

>81 Narilka: You voiced several of my concerns when I reached that point in the series. May I encourage you to continue watching? I still muttered under my breath in episode 7, but was much happier after episode 8. Also, I think it is debatable whether or not female dwarves have beards. Possibly some, not all, do. Or possibly it was just a rumor. Depends on who you ask.

In the show's defense Lady Disa does have some facial hair. You just have to look closely.

>88 MrsLee: I'm glad you enjoyed it. I thought they did a decent job of pointing out how easily Halbrand pulled off the deception. People wanted him to be on their side.

>89 clamairy: Yep, yep! I was happy it wasn't just a magical illusion or something.

>88 MrsLee: I'm planning to finish the season regardless. Will probably watch all 5 seasons unless the series goes horribly downhill in the future. At least I'm pretty sure Amazon committed to 5 seasons... I'll have to go validate that later.

I have a question. Was it odd that the "Stranger" suddenly started speaking in eloquent whole sentences after he sent the witches back to the darkness? I see internet rumors and theories that there is possible evidence for him NOT being Gandalf, but instead one of the Blue wizards, but I can't remember if the blue dudes were mentioned in LotR?

>92 MrsLee: it looked to me like that didn't happen until he grabbed that staff. There was definitely some juju in that staff, because after he used it it disintegrated. It restored at least some of his memory. And I'm 99.999% sure that he's Gandalf. He said to "always follow your nose."

>93 clamairy: I caught that, but somewhere read that Gandalf and Saruman didn't come to Middle Earth until the beginning of the third age. However, it wouldn't be the first time the show has played loose and easy with the timeline! I don't remember from my own reading when that happened, and if it wasn't mentioned in LotR directly, there is no reason they shouldn't hasten their arrival.

>94 MrsLee: I found an article this morning, that explained that Tolkien himself said that although Gandalf didn't come to stay in Middle Earth permanently until the third age he had visited before that.

>95 clamairy: Thanks!

Finally watched episode 8, which I enjoyed the most of all of the episodes so far.

>97 Karlstar: I'm glad to hear that.

Finally finished the series. You're right, episode 8 gave some answers. I'm thinking it's Gandalf too due to the "follow your nose" thing. As Nori is our analog for Frodo, I was somewhat surprised that her "Sam" (Poppy) didn't join for the adventure. Perhaps she'll join up next season. I'm also thinking we'll find out that Isildur survived somehow too. Galadriel's story that Celeborn went to war and didn't return... perhaps he will also show up.

Anyone have speculations or guesses on Season 2? I'm thinking this will be when the Dwarves make their rings.

Edit to add a question about Ep 8 Those witches, were they taken from the lore somewhere or just made up by the writers?

>99 Narilka: I agree with your speculations in your first spoiler and likely that is part of the plot for season 2. As far as your question about Ep 8, I do not recall them being in the books at all, any of the books. I'm also wondering - where they alive or undead? Precursors of the ringwraiths? Were they elves or humans? I thought they were elves, but I'm not sure. Extrapolations on the references to 'Necromancers' in LOTR or the Witch King of Angmar from the books?

Read this in an article today:

"Where canon-obsessed fans might see a limitation, any good storyteller would see a tantalizing mystery. Tolkien himself often amended and expanded his own work, so why shouldn’t Rings of Power take some creative liberties, especially with the author’s gray areas? Isn’t it more fun to think about what could be true, rather than what must be true? "

>101 Karlstar: I love this! Where did you find it?

>102 clamairy: Uh oh, it showed up in the suggested articles in my browser, so I read it then forgot where it was from, sorry.

>103 Karlstar: No worries. I do that all the time with my Google news feed. They can never be found again.

>104 clamairy: Maybe try a copy/paste of the quote from >101 Karlstar: into a search engine...?

>102 clamairy: Esquire, 2 November. It showed up in one of mine too.

ETA I can’t link to it, but it might help that the article title is “The Trouble with Canon”.

>105 ScoLgo: Yes, I figured I would try that when I had a bigger chunk of time.

>106 haydninvienna: Thank you!!!

>107 clamairy: Actually, it’s “The Problem with Canon”. Sorry about that. That’s what I get for posting at 0430 when I should have been asleep.

>108 haydninvienna: No worries. I still haven't had a chance to go looking for it.

>108 haydninvienna: Were you watching "The Trouble With Tribbles" at the time?

>110 MrAndrew: No, just reading Talk while mildly insomniac.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2023/04/01/116403-actor-orlando-bloom-to-return...

>112 clamairy: Awesome!

>112 clamairy: April fool! :(

>114 MrsLee: Oh no, she got me!

>114 MrsLee: Damn! That’s too bad!

>114 MrsLee: Dagnabbit.
>115 Karlstar: They got me, too! I thought it was already April 2nd in New Zealand...

I did kind of wonder about the whole Legolas' grandfather thing. Without looking it up, I don't even remember such a person. Even if Oropher exists, he isn't mentioned a lot, is he?

Article today in The Ringer that had a side comment about Rings of Power:

https://www.theringer.com/tv/2023/4/28/23700980/citadel-review-amazon-prime-vide...

In a wide-ranging feature from The Hollywood Reporter earlier this month, sources at Amazon Prime Video revealed that The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power had an uninspiring 37 percent completion rate domestically—in other words, just over one-third of audiences finished the first season. (Per the Prime Video insiders, a 50 percent completion rate would’ve been seen as solid.)

https://www.theonion.com/report-reveals-only-jeff-bezos-finished-watching-lord-1...

You don't have to click on the link, because the headline says it all.

Report Reveals Only Jeff Bezos Finished Watching ‘Lord Of The Rings: Rings Of Power’

>120 MrAndrew: Bwahaha...

Has anyone started watching season 2? We tried tonight but got an error from the app every time we tried. Gave up and watched Only Murders in the Building instead.

I haven't tried yet, but I will probably start this week.

I cannot bring myself to try yet. I probably will sometime in the future. My kids are haters, me, I have no confidence that the producers will remain close to the spirit of Tolkien's work, so I have to work up my courage to give it a chance. I heard they are humanizing the orcs, giving them families, children they care about, making them reluctant to go to war. That's fine for the people who were from the area ruled by Sauron, but the orcs are elves which have been genetically altered and broken by torture. At least that's my understanding. I think it was Sauron's boss who did that. I don't know, maybe they are trying to portray what they were before all that happened.

I'm willing to have my sketchy memory corrected.

What do you all think about that? I know a lot of people want to empathize with the bad guy in a story, find out why they are what they are, they don't want to have purely evil creatures. I don't mind monsters for monster's sake in a work of fiction.

>125 MrsLee: I know a lot of people want to empathize with the bad guy in a story, find out why they are what they are, they don't want to have purely evil creatures. I don't mind monsters for monster's sake in a work of fiction.

For me, it depends on what kind of book it is and what it is trying to achieve. If it's character-driven, I'd want a villain with a complex personality. If it is an epic fantasy story, or maybe space cowboys battling a very evil galactic empire, then I am fine with bad guys being bad.

I also seem to remember that there were orcs who were elves twisted and tortured beyond recognition, but it's been too long since I reread Tolkien, unfortunately ;)

I might watch the series sometime. For now, we don't have Amazon Prime, and my family is sceptical ;)

>125 MrsLee: It was Morgoth who found elves before the elves were discovered by the other Valar and twisted them into orcs, from which all orcs came. The show seems to be kind of leaning into that. I haven't seen any sign of the orcs having families yet, but Mordor does have a lot of humans too.

We watched the first episode. I don't know how anyone who isn't familiar with non-LOTR Tolkien follows this show at all.

>127 Karlstar: Thank you, I couldn't remember the name and was too lazy to look it up. ;P

I wonder, is the show inspiring non-Tolkien readers to read his works? I suppose that would be a credit to the makers of it.

I just watched the first episode. I didn't hate it. I have to say I'm not sure whether to be miserable or pleased that they picked an actor who looks so much like Viggo Mortensen from certain angles to play Sauron. I'm sure I mentioned this last time, but the resemblance can be uncanny at times.

>129 clamairy: Good point, no wonder he looks familiar some times.

I'm liking the second season so much more, I've watched the first 6, and tense stuff in how Celebrimbor is being played by Sauron, but he's not the only one.

Leaving the last one there until they are booted.

They will flee to the east, and bide their time, until once again they can come to power.

>131 AnishaInkspill: I thought some of the Celebrimbor scenes were good, it isn't terrible, but I'm just not caring where they are taking it. I don't think we finished season 2.

>144 MrAndrew: Good one!

>145 Karlstar: and I wasn't sure if I was going to watch the second one but now I'm glad I did, overall its better and could have done with some scenes not running as long.

We finished it - the big reveal of the stranger, which you all probably have already guessed.

>131 AnishaInkspill: I finished episode 6 yesterday, and I am enjoying it. I think it helped that I lowered my expectations after season 1.

>148 AnishaInkspill: Done. I enjoyed it quite a bit. I had my doubts about the actor playing Sauron during season 1, but I thought he was believable in season 2. I felt the same way about the actor playing Celebrimbor. I had trouble seeing beyond his velour robes in the 1st season. But those last two episodes... Wow.

>150 clamairy: I haven't watched it yet, but you encourage me. I thought Celebrimbor got short shrift (is that the phrase?) in LotR.

>151 MrsLee: I think he's only mentioned in the appendices in LotR. Did you think I meant Celeborn? HE STILL HASN'T SHOWN UP! Sorry about the all caps, but apparently everyone thinks he's dead.

>152 clamairy: Oops, yes.

>152 clamairy: He's not dead and the Elrond - Galadriel thing gets creepier by the episode.

We finished it. It was fine, but the +1000 plot armor on Gil-galad, Elrond and Galadriel kind of spoils the suspense.

>154 Karlstar: I think that bit was only so Elrond could pass her the pin to pick the lock on her chains. What the blazes happened to Cirdan? I liked him better with the beard, BTW.

>155 clamairy: Good point. I completely missed Cirdan's reappearance in the last couple of episodes.

>150 clamairy: I know what you mean, Celebrimbor came to life in this season especially how he didn't see he was being played by Sauron, but the stranger & Tom Bombadil's scenes were were okay and I thougt not as suspnseful as the tension Celebrimbor - Sauron - Galadriel - Adar story.

But I'll still watch season 3 if it happens