Looking for great space opera

So you recently taught me that space opera now means something different than what I originally understood it to mean.
Could you now also recommend some good examples?
Based on this new to me definition, some that I've enjoyed are:
Naismith/Vorkosigan
This Alien Shore , In Conquest Born, This Alien Shore by C. S. Friedman
Imperial Radch
Jacobs Ladder
Wayfarers
Confederation and Peacekeeper
The Murderbot Diaries

CJ Cherryh's Alliance Union series and her Chanur books
Kate Elliot's Unconquerable Sun
Suzanne Palmer's The Finder Chronicles
Some Desperate Glory by Emily Tesh

Elizabeth Moon's Vatta Universe and Serrano Legacy series.
Elizabeth Bear's Ancestral Night and Machine
James White's Sector General series (medical space opera :) )
Liaden Universe by Lee and Miller.

This is going back a ways, but so are some of your examples. I've fond memories of Stephen R. Donaldson's Gap Cycle, starting with The Real Story. He's not for everybody, but he was definitely for me.

My favorite recent space opera read is Adrian Tchaikovsky's The Final Architecture trilogy.

I would not consider Murderbot Diaries or Wayfarers as a Space Opera. But I guess I'm weird now.

Though I recommend Honor Harrington as a good space opera/military space opera

Newton's Wake has "A Space Opera" for its subtitle, and I liked it.

I am at the 2/3 point on Zones of Thought. I was impressed with the first book and liked the second better.

I'm a fan of The Kefahuchi Tract books, but they are definitely not to all tastes.

I also like Delany's space operas Nova and Babel-17.

The Liaden books are great. There are several possible starting points, such as Agent of Change. I started with Fledgling and went on from there.

>4 Cecrow: Trigger warning for the Gap Series due to rape and violence against women.

If one can get past the worst of it in the first book, it does turn into quite a good space opera pentalogy. As an author, Donaldson does have a tendency to alienate readers with misogynistic content.

>7 paradoxosalpha:
Newton's Wake was one I had in mind. I loved the opera put on for the Chinese commune. Ken MacLeod has a great sense of humour.

>1 amberwitch: Iain M. Banks's books are a must if you are looking for space opera, both the Culture and non-Culture stories.

Anything by Peter F Hamilton, Alastair Reynolds, or the Culture novels by the late great Iain M Banks are excellent places to start with space opera.

I am liking The Culture, having read less than half of it, but I also thought The Algebraist was very good.

>12 paradoxosalpha:
I love The Algebraist.

A couple that haven't yet had a mention that I really enjoyed are:

The Expanse series by James S. A. Corey
The Risen Empire by Scott Westerfeld (a duology where the first book also has the same name as the omnibus edition)
Old Man's War series by John Scalzi

If you like space battles, Jack Campbell's Admiral Geary series. Walter Jon Williams' Dread Empire's Fall series. Hamilton and Reynolds are my favs.

If you haven't read it already - Dune. Alastair Reynolds and Iain Banks are favorites. CJ Cherryh's Alliance Union series, Adrian Tchaikovsky's Architect series also. I haven't read The Expanse series yet, but it is on my TBR. I liked Donaldson's Gap series a lot. The first book was short and ok. As mentioned above, it is pretty brutal in its treatment of the main female character. But overall, it is excellent. I just finished Peter Hamilton's Void series which was also excellent.

Space Opera is my favorite. I am hoping to get some recommendations for new books I haven't read yet from this thread.

>14 AHS-Wolfy: I second the recommendation for Westerfield's The Risen Empire. It has a slightly unusual take on the classic interstellar empire trope.

Title confusion arises because the two novels were combined in one volume for UK publication, and given the title of the first one. So whether you're expecting a stand-alone novel or a duo depends on where you're located.

Another series that hasn't been mentioned - Linda Nagata's Inverted Frontier series - Edges, Silver and Needle. I enjoyed the first three and am looking forward to the fourth, Blade.

The Wrong Stars trilogy is good fun.

>17 RobertDay: Shame he didn't write more in this area. Probably getting more sales for the YA series (not to mention the movie adaptation which still hasn't seen the light of day) so can't really blame him for it I suppose.

I’ll echo what others have already written:
* The Expanse is absolutely outstanding. i still need to read Memory’s Legion to complete that series.
* The Imperial Radch series which has now grown to 5 novels is really enjoyable.
* CJ Cherryh’s Company Wars / Alliance-Union universe is compelling reading. I still need to get to her more recent Alliance Rising novel.

For older stuff, I read the two volumes of Aldiss' Galactic Empires anthology not too long ago. It was interesting in terms of the origins and evolution of the form, but I would definitely prefer more recent works.

I should also mention K B Wagers series Indranan Wars startiing with Behind the Throne. Lots of fun with a former runaway gun-running princess forced home to help her planet.

I was just coming down to recommend K B Wagers but for her newer NeoG series. I liked the Indianan Wars books, but the (three books so far) NeoG Coast Guard in Solar System Space has interesting characters along with fun space opera adventure plots,

>7 paradoxosalpha: I am a fan of The Zones of Thought, what a great series.

I don't know what the working definition is to know what to recommend.

I certainly second the Honor Harrington series. One of my all time favorites.

I can also recommend Fault Lines by Kelly Jennings, especially if you like the Liaden books.

I just joined this group and the first message stated,

"So you recently taught me that space opera now means something different than what I originally understood it to mean."

Where did the discussion of the working definition of "space opera" occur and what is the agreed upon working definition?

If you do a search in this group for space opera the thread comes up. I believe it included "not just Honor Harrington"

ETA: https://www.librarything.com/topic/354834#8281455

I am an unabashed Alastair Reynolds fan - would highly recommend. Less "spaceships and lasers" and more gritty interpersonal struggles and the darker side of technology.

>30 Aquila: that was exactly the discussion that prompted my question in order to expand my understanding of space opera from the classical Honor Harrington type.
Apropos the talk of Steve Millers death - Based on the few Liaden books I’ve read, those would probably also fit this definition.
But interesting that Murderbot wouldn’t be considered space opera with the new, expanded definition. Maybe it isn’t grand enough.
Anyway - a lot of interesting discussions and proposals for new reading - just started Some desperate glory by Emily Tesh due to the recommendations here.

Well, pace >6 gilroy:, I certainly call the Murderbot Diaries space opera. And the tags on the series page show I'm not the only one.

>33 paradoxosalpha: Murderbot is space opera because sometimes it is set in space?

It's mostly set in space, with plots fully dependent on space travel that is considered routine by the principal characters. Also, it blithely accepts FTL interstellar travel as a premise. That all adds up to space opera in my book. What disqualifies it in yours?

New to the group and joining in! How about the Spinward Fringe series? It has been awhile since I have read it, but I remember really liking it.

>35 paradoxosalpha: At least one of the novellas I've read was entirely set on a planet. 2 others were on space stations, but I think that's stretching the definition of 'space opera' a lot.

>35 paradoxosalpha: I agree with everything in your definition except "It's mostly set in space". Dune, for instance, takes place on planets, and mostly on one planet -- and if that's not space opera, what is?

>37 Karlstar:
The central characters in Murderbot stories are nearly always away from their home worlds. Art, in particular, is always in space. How can you think of a story about a starship as not being space opera?

>38 rshart3:
I wasn't trying to create a definition to limit space opera, just to catalog features that would show that The Murderbot Diaries qualify.

>39 paradoxosalpha: Because a definition of space opera that says 'if there's at least one spaceship, its space opera', seems too broad to me.

>40 Karlstar:
Please don't straw-man me to death.

If there is a principal character who IS a starship, I strongly suspect a book of being a space opera. You can have the last word if you like, as I despair of clarification. You don't seem to be reading what I'm writing here.

A times I can't tell if a book is sci fi or SFF so I've no issue with ambiguous terms. I guess I label a genre for a book based on how it hits me, rather than a definition.

For me, Space Opera has to have a grander scale than Murderbot Diaries. It needs a background of interplanetary governments and factions that are primary actors in the plot.

I'm only a few books in to the Murderbot Diaries, but GreyCris and Preservation don't give me the same grand sense of scale as the Empire and the Rebels, or the Culture, or House Harkonnen, House Atriedes, the Bene Gesserit and the Navigators Guild, or the Federation and the Vulcans and Klingons.

(I'm not picking on the Murderbot Diaries, I'm really enjoying the stories, but they don't feel like space opera to me.)

>43 r.orrison:

That's a fair distinction that I can appreciate, although it's not an integral part of my concept of space opera. Also, I do get the sense of a grander plot that takes in the general phenomenon of the Corporation Rim, as well as the exo-archaelogical depth that has started to emerge in the stories.

I find Murderbot to be more obviously space-operatic than The Kefahuchi Tract, which I wouldn't for a moment disqualify from "space opera," albeit a highly experimental instance.

>42 majkia:
I am with you on this. Genre can be a help for some people trying to find another book to enjoy, but I think the more refined sub-genre categories are primarily to help the publishers and marketeers target customers. Many of the books I enjoy defy confinement to a given genre. That does not disturb me in the least.

>43 r.orrison: I like the way you phrase this. There's a certain SF subgenre -- which I like a lot -- that has a strong noir, cyberpunk atmosphere. I don't know if there's a term for that already, but the Murderbot books are in that category. It lacks the sweep, and maybe the sense of mission, of the well chosen space opera examples you give. It does however have great options for quiet heroism and ambiguous bad/good guys.

>46 rshart3:

See, now I wouldn't call Murderbot "noir" at all! I just read some seriously noir sf, i.e. Veniss Underground, and I can certainly remark others. Harrison's Nova Swing would probably be my favorite example, and another good one is The City & the City. (The former I would class with space opera, the latter not at all.) Radiance is overtly and consciously film noir for one major section, and it is a crazy sort of space opera.

Murderbot took a serious turn toward the "mystery" genre in Fugitive Telemetry, but I thought it was more Arthur Conan Doyle than Raymond Chandler.

>47 paradoxosalpha: love this! I’ve always thought of the Alex Benedict series (or at least the later ones) as cozy space noir. They remind me somewhat of the Nero Wolfe series, which to me is cozy noir, just in space. Hence cozy space noir.
Probably too small a sample to make a sub-genre, though I might add Fugitive Telemetry to the list:)

Century Rain being another great space Noir entry.

Enjoying all the discussion.

>43 r.orrison:

I think the Quiet War series by Paul McAuley is an interesting edge-case. It too isn't particularly wide scale (set within the confines of the solar system) but a lot of people have tagged it with 'space opera'.

>50 andyl: My only conclusion looking at the tag page is that people tag any SF that isn't confined to the surface of the earth "space opera".

>51 anglemark: I agree. The classic meaning of "opera" in the sense applied to the entertainment industry is a series of offerings focusing on the interpersonal dynamics among a group of characters, usually in a melodramatic manner. A space opera is a melodramatic treatment of the interactions of space travelers and extraterrestrial characters. I suppose sci-fi stories focusing almost exclusively on action sequences could slip in without the melodramatic focus on emotional entanglements.

>49 reading_fox: I enjoyed the Noir atmosphere of Century Rain.

When reviewers and critics in the fifties used the term "space opera" it was clearly a spin on "horse opera", itself a spin on "soap opera". "Horse opera" referred to the 100s of cheap hour-long westerns in the 40s and 50s that were just an excuse for good guys and bad guys to ride horses and shoot at each other. Space opera used space ships and ray guns instead, but the real criteria for calling something a space opera was if it was ignored science and serious speculation and was just written for adventure and entertainment.

I agree. Add to "written for adventure and entertainment," they eliminated or limited the emotional melodrama.

Given that, I think the soap operas I most enjoyed was the E. E. Smith Gray Lensman series, Jack Chalker's Well World and Four Lords of the Diamond series, the early books in Anne McCaffrey's Dragonrider series (although romance figures prominently in these stories), and Elizabeth Moon's Vatta's War series.