New Iliad and Odyssey

New Iliad and Odyssey coming in 2025 with translation from Emily Wilson and illustrated by Clive Hicks-Jenkins.

https://clivehicksjenkins.wordpress.com/

>1 assemblyman:

The illustrations promise to be interesting but I confess my first thought is to ponder whether we actually need another Folio presentation of Homer's great works.

>1 assemblyman:
That's awesome. Thank you for the information. Could it mean a new LE aswell?

>2 folio_books: Maybe not, but since my Iliad/Odyssey translations are by Pope, I'll be buying these :)

>1 assemblyman: >4 gmacaree: I would say the different translation would be one of the main selling points for someone to go for another FS edition.

>3 Ragnaroekk: Hard to know with FS. No mention of which they will be. It’s interesting that the artist is working on both and both are coming out next year. It could be one release?

I will definitely buy both. 🙂

I wonder if they'll follow the same single colour, full leather binding as Herodotus' Histories and the Peloponnesian War just as these same 4 titles were all in a similar quarter leather binding from the 90s.

This sounds very promising, Emily Wilson's iambic pentameter verse translation has received rave reviews.

I checked the count on both SEs on the website and both are north of 900 copies left. I’d be surprised if they released a new SE of both before selling off remaining stock of the old SEs. So I’m assuming these will be an LE release.

>8 cronshaw: I read the first rhapsody of Wilson’s Iliad, and her translation reads very much like verse, regardless of how philologists label it. I’m not debating the layers and accuracy here, that has been discussed before, but in my view, Wilson’s translation feels unepic.

Still, if the choice is between not reading the Iliad and reading Wilson’s version, the latter is definitely preferable. Every generation deserves its own Iliad, and this is clearly a translation aimed at the masses.

I would, however, suggest that prospective buyers compare it with other translations to find the one that best suits their mood. The Odyssey is much easier to digest and forgive, as Odysseus is closer to the modern man. The Iliad offers a window into the ancient psyche - more complex to appreciate, but ultimately far more rewarding.

If FS is doing contemporary translations of Homer, I hope that they also eventually do Omeros by Derek Walcott and the complete War Music by Christopher Logue.

>2 folio_books: I’m in agreement. I also question whether they need another edition especially since their Fagles translation is still available direct.

More so, because there is so much more they could be publishing which they haven’t yet, or did so a long time ago.

And can anyone really argue that this translation has stood the test of time? The ink is still wet on it.

I fear this is yet another cash over case decision.

>10 bacchus.: I disagree completely with the Odyssey being the easier text to digest. I agree that it feels easier, in the same way that Frost's poetry feels simplistic, but like Frost there's vast complexity underneath. I could spend the rest of my life reading nothing but the Iliad and be pretty happy, but I still think the Odyssey is more complex and more rewarding.

With the preamble that yes I know beauty is in the eye of the beholder, taste varies, etc. ...

Who thought this was the best take on illustrating Homer for a major edition from the Folio Society?

It's a good thing I don't care for the Wilson translation.

The caption text for this post has some additional details about the commission that might be of interest to some here:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-HaUaIiID3/

And to be fair, the colored work in this post looks a bit better to my eye than many of the other posts, though it's still not exciting me, especially when I think of all the other artists that could work on it.

>15 abysswalker: Saints preserve us! It’s like Rob Roy all over again.

I recently read the Emily Wilson translations of these books, and found them to be very readable for a modern audience. Whether they'll stand the test of time, and how well they follow the original, I can't say. But I did enjoy them more than my Fagles translations.

As to the illustrations, well that's another matter. I may be revealing my old fogey status by saying that these books might be better served with the black and white woodcut or linocut illustrations that were common in FS books in the 80s and 90s.

>17 coynedj: I may never get round to reading the Wilson translation, happy to date with my Everyman Fitzgerald editions which to me are vg.

I do worry sometimes that young up and coming translators try to make a mark, by controversies rather than enhancement. One just need look at the Douay Rheims bible, which was more or less the bricks and mortar of the AKJV, to what we have now, all in the name of progress, readability, and (shudder) modern sensibilities.

This art seems like a joke.

>13 CabbageMoth: We can agree to disagree on this. If you are reading the epics as simple stories with a contemporary mindset, maybe. Complexity there is, in both, but Iliad is an older song, and individual reasoning as we know it is just not there. Odyssey is centered around μήτις, the wits of the individual, and it marks the beginning of relying on one’s self, the self gradually taking over the Gods as the agent of action and reasoning (which is truly capitalized linguistically much later in Plato). Odysseus is just easier to identify with. In Iliad there is no logical reasoning, Gods are the intermediaries of everything; the mind (nous) is not the undisputed center of an individual. Each part (the heart, the guts etc.) is its own agent. It’s no wonder that often readers are quick to judge Iliad’s characters as unreasonable.

From a psyche perspective, and my point of view, Iliad is the more complicated work to grasp, not because the bards intended to do so, but because it was conceived and brought down from an older period where society structure was fundamentally different of what we know today.

Following the demise of God-King societies (the fall of Troy and Achilles μήνις if you will) the shift towards the city states was no random happenstance but a shift towards societies that centered around the individual (and this is where lyric poetry flourished, where the individual, not Gods, truly shines through).

>20 bacchus.: Interesting perspectives which I’m inclined to agree with. I did an MA reading Greek and Latin back around 2010/2012 and was fortunate enough to get to translate some of Homer and Virgil. It is a challenge to ditch your cultural baggage when you bring your intellect to engaging in these texts at source.

To my mind, the best Iliad and Odyssey is the edition published by Chester River Press.
See https://www.librarything.com/topic/324776

>22 wcarter: The Alexander Pope translation used in the CRP edition is also used by the 1931 LEC editions. The LEC duo feature in the Grolier Club's A Century for the Century (1900-1999).

B&V review: https://booksandvines.com/2015/06/22/odyssey-and-iliad-by-homer-limited-editions...

Complete list of A Century for the Century provided by a saint here: https://www.librarything.com/topic/115929#8305422

>4 gmacaree: "It is a very pretty poem, Mr Pope, but you must not call it Homer."

>18 LesMiserables: I wonder if "young up and comer" Robert Fitzgerald, who was in his early 50s and a professor at a US university (just like Wilson is now), encountered such scepticism when his version was published. In any case, given the 60-odd years that have passed since then, I feel there is room in the world for another translation - even one informed by the awful sensibilities of our time.

>25 ian_curtin: Quite possibly.

A comparison of a few translations of the opening of The Odyssey from newest to oldest...

Emily Wilson (2017):

Tell me about a complicated man.
Muse, tell me how he wandered and was lost
when he had wrecked the holy town of Troy,
and where he went, and who he met, the pain
he suffered on the sea, and how he worked
to save his life and bring his men back home.
He failed, and for their own mistakes, they died.
They ate the Sun God's cattle, and the god
kept them from home. Now goddess, child of Zeus,
tell the old story for our modern times.
Find the beginning.


Robert Fagles (1996):

Sing to me of the man, Muse, the man of twists and turns
driven time and again off course, once he had plundered
the hallowed heights of Troy.
Many cities of men he saw and learned their minds,
many pains he suffered, heartsick on the open sea,
fighting to save his life and bring his comrades home.
But he could not save them from disaster, hard as he strove-
the recklessness of their own ways destroyed them all,
the blind fools, they devoured the cattle of the Sun
and the Sungod wiped from sight the day of their return.
Launch out on his story, Muse, daughter of Zeus,
start from where you will— sing for our time too.


Robert Fitzgerald (1961):

Sing in me, Muse, and through me tell the story
of that man skilled in all ways of contending,
the wanderer, harried for years on end,
after the plundered the stronghold
on the proud height of Troy.
He saw the townlands
and learned the minds of many distant men,
and weathered many bitter nights and days
in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only
to save his life, to bring his shipmates home.
But not by will nor valour could he save them,
for their own recklessness destroyed them all—
children and fools, they killed and feasted on
the cattle of Lord Hêlios, the Sun,
and he who moves all day through heaven
took from their eyes the dawn of their return.

Of these adventures, Muse, daughter of Zeus,
tell us in our time, lift the great song again...


Alexander Pope (1726):

The man for wisdom’s various arts renown’d,
Long exercised in woes, O Muse! resound;
Who, when his arms had wrought the destined fall
Of sacred Troy, and razed her heaven-built wall,
Wandering from clime to clime, observant stray’d,
Their manners noted, and their states survey’d,
On stormy seas unnumber’d toils he bore,
Safe with his friends to gain his natal shore:
Vain toils! their impious folly dared to prey
On herds devoted to the god of day;
The god vindictive doom’d them never more
(Ah, men unbless’d!) to touch that natal shore.
Oh, snatch some portion of these acts from fate,
Celestial Muse! and to our world relate.


So, do you prefer the 'complicated man', the 'man of twists and turns', 'the man skilled in all ways of contending', or 'the man for wisdom's various arts renown'd' ?

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: Comparing the text above I still prefer the Fagles translation. It sounds great to my ear and is still very readable. The current FS edition is the only translation I have fully read though.

>28 assemblyman: Me too.

Although I don't want to rush to judgement since I've only read a few pages, and I can see the value of a sparse and accessible translation, I find myself missing the poetic language of Fagles (and Fitzgerald). For example, 'the hallowed heights of Troy' sounds more epic to me than 'the holy town of Troy'. When it comes to Helios' cattle, 'devoured' is more emphatic and evocative to me than just 'ate'.

As >24 InVitrio: mentioned, Pope is kind of its own thing, but wonderful too IMO.

I tend to think 'the more the merrier' as far as translations are concerned. Especially if it means more people will have the joy of experiencing Homer. A new angle is always welcome. That's the way I see it anyway.

Since I don't have much insight into accuracy, other than what I read in the translators' introductions, I usually just go on what sounds best and feels 'right' to me — though I'd be hard pressed to explain exactly what that is!

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: We don’t even need to delve into the complicated translation of πολύτροπος, which Wilson swiftly dismisses as “complicated”. The Muses were believed to be the storytellers; the bards called on the Muses to sing a story through them. The earliest account I know of, where the poet is revealed and takes some credit for his own work in ancient Greek texts, is in Hesiod (but he also attributes his genius to the Muses If I remember correctly). I believe “Sing in me” captures this nicely, while “Tell me about” is lazy and inadequate - I could translate the Odyssey like that myself :) So based on a quick read of the samples above, in my opinion, Wilson reduces the epic to high school English, Fitzgerald is the most faithful, Fagles the most epic, and Pope I personally struggle with as English (or whatever that is) is not my first language.

>30 bacchus.:
"Wilson reduces the epic to high school English"

That made me laugh 😄

>30 bacchus.: Of the above, Wilson stands out to me at least, as the least poetic. It seems unromantic and sterile.

>30 bacchus.: Fascinating, thank you. You have a level of insight into the Greek that I wish I had! It's certainly very interesting to compare.

For example, the way the translators describe Troy: Fitzgerald and Fagles both emphasise the 'height' or 'heights', while Wilson does not. On the other hand Wilson, Fagles and Pope all make mention of the 'holy' 'hallowed' or 'heaven-built' nature of the city, while Fitzgerald simply calls it 'proud'.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths:

Thank you for this comparison of translations. It's definitely Fagles for me.

>34 SF-72: It's definitely Fagles for me.

Me too, beyond all doubt.

The current FS production is excellent. I love the Fagles translation, the binding is well done, and the illustrations are to my taste.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: Thanks for this comparison. I prefer the Fagles as well.

Wilson's sounds robotic, awkward and clunky:

"He failed, and for their own mistakes, they died."

I guess the story told for our modern times should sound like AI wrote it.

Really fascinating how the translations evolved/changed over all those years.

Nice to have more options for different tastes, but the Fitzgerald versions still work best for me.

I enjoy multiple translations, particularly when each brings a fresh vantage. Classic Greek plays, The Divine Comedy, Beowulf have all been improved for me by having various glosses applied to them. I think the Wilson translation brings that kind of modern cant that some other translations have done, and successfully. I agree the Fagles remains the best in a lyric sense still, but there is room for other takes executed with care. I believe this new one qualifies on those terms.

Just an update. The artist has confirmed in a post on his Instagram page yesterday that the Iliad and Odyssey will be a double edition.

The number of times I have a read glowing review of a new (American) translation of a Greek classic only to find characters sounding as if they grew up in the Bronx. I look for translations that suggest encounters with otherness, not those that attempt to acclimatise. If a work is timeless, the essential qualities that make us human will shine through – they, at least, don't need translation.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: Thank you for that handy comparison. I much prefer the Fitzgerald and the Fagles, and am not impressed with the over-simplification and altered connotations in the new Wilson translation. It teaches me not to trust reviews on the internet.

Well this is a bummer. Folio never ceases to amazing me - are they trying to only appeal to the younger Tiktok/Facebook crowd? The art reminds me of the Beowulf LE where it is trying so hard to create an antiquated setting with a hip modern spin. I also don't understand the translation selection. Fagles is only a few decades old and Fitzgerald still holds the test of time and both are equally superb. With >27 GardenOfForkingPaths: example, Wilson clearly has a much less epic feel and is dumbed down... did Folio choose it just because it looks better saying it is from 2017 and not 1996? Does their new readership need something more elementary?

What a creative and bold vision by the new leadership of The Folio Society. Why publish Epicurus, Plato, Aristotle, Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, Aristophanes or Xenophon when they can republish their forth or fifth edition with a cool 21st century spin of the Iliad and the Odyssey!

>44 Joshbooks1:

I agree.

I do wish they did the Greek comedies, to match the set of tragedies, but in this day and age, I think we can forget that.

>44 Joshbooks1: If you ever commented about a new FS edition without mentioning Tik Tok, I’d wonder if it was really you talking.

Anyway, agreed that the Wilson translation sounds like high school English, or actually worse, as high schoolers study Shakespeare, don’t they?

As someone said, the translation should still preserve a sense of “otherness” and read like an epic, as opposed to an Enid Blyton book.

But on the other hand, if it makes it accessible to new audiences, whether they frequent Tik Tok or not, what’s the harm in that? The older translations are still there if anyone wants them.

What's interesting is that both The Iliad and The Odyssey had sold out earlier in the year and it looks like Folio invested in another 1,000 copy print run of both since then. Given that, have to imagine this new set is some sort of Limited Edition.

In terms of translations, my personal preference will always stray towards fidelity to the original text. While I have heard positive things about the Wilson translation, it feels more like a retelling than a literal translation to me. For a modern translation, I would much prefer the Peter Green translation from University of California Press.

Honestly, I like them all.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: Based on the opening passages, I would choose Fagles. Fitzgerald a close second. Wilson's is uninspiring.

Wilson is for the new generation that just wanna read a classic and be able to talk about it, without trouble.
I bet it will be a Limited edition.

I would love to see editions of Xenophon (March of the Ten Thousand),
Julius Caesar (Gallic War),
Tacitus (Germania)...

>46 What_What: I don’t think the Fagles translation is inaccessible.

Just to be clear, I listened to Wilson’s interview on the Slightly Foxed podcast and liked her views; I’m a fan of her as a person. However, I think FS’s choice has more to do with trend and identity politics than merit. That’s fine for some, but not so much for others - and there’s no harm in that either.

This website compares translations of Iliad: https://iliad-translations.com/

...mentioned on this thread from 2011 titled "Best" translation of Iliad & Odyssey?: https://www.librarything.com/topic/120143

A bit more insight into the translation; I believe it’s more interesting when it comes to the vivid similes Homer draws from nature (I’d love to compare with other translations as well but it’s too time consuming)

Troops gather like buzzing bees,

Wilson
“The troops rushed out, as swarms of bees come rushing
out of a hollow rock, more always coming,
and fly and cluster on the springtime flowers,
myriads here and there—so many swarms
of men from ships and huts were marching out
along the wide beach to the meeting place. Among them, Rumor burned. She brought the news
from Zeus, and coaxed them on. The crowd assembled.”

Fagles:
“Rank and file
streamed behind and rushed like swarms of bees
pouring out of a rocky hollow, burst on endless burst,
bunched in clusters seething over the first spring blooms,
dark hordes swirling into the air, this way, that way-
so the many armed platoons from the ships and tents
came marching on, close-file, along the deep wide beach
to crowd the meeting grounds, and Rumor, Zeus's crier,
like wildfire blazing among them, whipped them on.”

Soldiers like a wave,

Wilson:
“Just as when Zephyr rouses more and more
waves from the deafening sea to dash against
the shore—a crest of water rises up
out of the deep, then with a mighty roar
it crashes on the headlands, rises high,
and at its peak disgorges briny foam—
so more and more Greek warriors were roused
in never-ending phalanxes to battle.”

Fagles:
“As a heavy surf assaults some roaring coast,
piling breaker on breaker whipped by the West Wind, and out on the open sea a crest first rears its head
then pounds down on the shore with hoarse, rumbling thunder
and in come more shouldering crests, arching up and breaking
against some rocky spit, exploding salt foam to the skies-
so wave on wave they came, Achaean battalions ceaseless,
surging on to war. “

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: >53 bacchus.: Thank you both for sharing these excerpts! The Wilson translation is working for me and actually makes me want to read the 2 texts.

>40 Shadekeep: "I enjoy multiple translations, particularly when each brings a fresh vantage."

Agreed!

>53 bacchus.:

Thank you for sharing this. I must say it's better than the other passage with regard to Wilson, but I still prefer Fagles' style by far.

I noted this edition a few weeks since, coming out in April of '25. Mendelsohn, funnily, is American too.

"With his new Odyssey, author and translator Daniel Mendelsohn has created a translation to stand with the famous versions by E.V. Rieu and Robert Fagles. Mendelsohn sets aside the streamlining, modernizing approach of many recent translations, focusing instead on the epic’s formal qualities to bring the great story to life in all its archaic grandeur. This line-for-line rendering brings us closer to the poetics of the original than any other recent translations."

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/464703/the-odyssey-by-homer/9780241733585

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths:
Peter Green, 2018

The man, Muse—tell me about that resourceful man, who wandered far and wide, when he’d sacked Troy’s sacred citadel:
many men’s townships he saw, and learned their ways of thinking,
many the griefs he suffered at heart on the open sea,
battling for his own life and his comrades’ homecoming.
Yet no way could he save his comrades, much though he longed to—
it was through their own blind recklessness that they perished,
the fools, for they slaughtered the cattle of Hēlios the sun god
and ate them: for that he took from them their day of returning.
Tell us this tale, goddess, child of Zeus; start anywhere in it!”

Excerpt From
The Odyssey
Homer
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-odyssey/id1282665280

>56 FitzJames: Thanks for posting. That sounds hopeful. Interestingly, I see that Mendelsohn riffed on the Odyssey in a highly regarded memoir a few years ago.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: Do you prefer the 'complicated man', the 'man of twists and turns', 'the man skilled in all ways of contending', or 'the man for wisdom's various arts renown'd'?

Of those four I prefer Fitzgerald's. 'Complicated' seems to have been chosen for the metre, but its meaning feels quite wrong to me. Fagles 'twists and turns' sounds well poetically but what meaning does it actually convey - indecision, deviousness, breakdancing? Peter Green's 'resourceful' sounds so apt (>57 Charles959: thank you) that I now want to discover more of that translation.

>25 ian_curtin: Are you inclined to agree that the aforementioned excerpts testify to a lack of finesse in comparison to the accepted greats in this field?

I wonder if perhaps the fact of her lineage has in some way propelled forward a half-baked product, which otherwise, had it come from a less well known daughter, would have not landed the commission that it has?

Oh nice! I was thinking about getting the paperbacks of the Wilson translations, but if these are affordable I'll get them for sure.
Art looks fine.

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: wow that is so interesting - thanks for sharing!

I love “Find the beginning.” That’s cool. Reminds me vaguely of Call me Ishmael.

Let's not forget the translator George Chapman :D

>27 GardenOfForkingPaths: So, do you prefer the 'complicated man', the 'man of twists and turns', 'the man skilled in all ways of contending', or 'the man for wisdom's various arts renown'd' ?

I have the advantage of being able to translate ancient Greek, so I'd stick with that - if I were ever to be interested in this, I'd want a bilingual text...

Actually, let's take on that challenge. The first ten lines...

The man, tell, Muse, the one of many goals, who was much and wide
Beaten, once he ruined the holy citysite of Troy;
Many places of men he saw and minds he knew,
Many pains he bore on the vast in his heart,
Reaching for the soul and homecoming of his own.
But none of them did he seize, despite his desire;
With their recklessness they self-destroyed,
Children, who the cattle of the Sun on high
Devoured; he took the homecoming day from them.
From somewhere, goddess, daughter of Zeus, tell us.

>65 InVitrio: Wow, I like it, especially "he took the homecoming day from them". I look forward to the Limited Edition version!

>59 cronshaw: I like 'the man of twists and turns' because of that ambiguity. I have seen the Greek Polytropos translated directly as "many turns" and Fagles seems to retain some of that meaning. 'Twists and turns' has meanings that can be applied to Odysseus' journey, his trials and tribulations, as well as to the substance of his character. For the latter, which feels like the most important aspect here, it has both negative and positive connotations — as you say, it could include deviousness as well as skill and resourcefulness. Possibly breakdancing too!

I watched a lecture Emily Wilson gave and found it fascinating. Her translation choices seemed thoughtful and well argued (as you would expect from a classicist who has devoted many years of their life to a translation). Translating into iambic pentameter and using the same number of lines as Homer seems to have necessitated some sacrifices in the detail, ambiguity and richness of language that we find in other translations. Wilson has said she felt that the metrical nature of the poem has been drastically overlooked in the past and deserved to be highlighted this time. I would tend to see the language simplification in those terms rather than a dumbing down. For me, I don't know if the sacrifice is worth it, and I will probably stick with Fagles or Fitzgerald, but I think it's an impressive feat and an interesting addition to the body of translations. I'm no expert, I just love Homer.

Turning back to the start of the Odyssey, here's a snippet from an interview with Emily Wilson I found on the languagehat website:

The prefix poly,” Wilson said, laughing, “means ‘many’ or ‘multiple.’ Tropos means ‘turn.’ ‘Many’ or ‘multiple’ could suggest that he’s much turned, as if he is the one who has been put in the situation of having been to Troy, and back, and all around, gods and goddesses and monsters turning him off the straight course that, ideally, he’d like to be on. Or, it could be that he’s this untrustworthy kind of guy who is always going to get out of any situation by turning it to his advantage. It could be that he’s the turner.

“So the question,” Wilson continued, “of whether he’s the turned or the turner: I played around with that a lot in terms of how much should I be explicit about going for one versus the other. I remember that being one of the big questions I had to start off with.”

“I wanted there to be a sense,” Wilson told me, that “maybe there is something wrong with this guy. You want to have a sense of anxiety about this character, and that there are going to be layers we see unfolded. We don’t quite know what the layers are yet. So I wanted the reader to be told: be on the lookout for a text that’s not going to be interpretively straightforward.”

“If I was really going to be radical,” Wilson told me, returning to the very first line of the poem, “I would’ve said, polytropos means ‘straying,’ and andra” — “man,” the poem’s first word — “means ‘husband,’ because in fact andra does also mean ‘husband,’ and I could’ve said, ‘Tell me about a straying husband.’ And that’s a viable translation. That’s one of the things it says. But it would give an entirely different perspective and an entirely different setup for the poem. The fact that it’s possible to translate the same lines a hundred different times and all of them are defensible in entirely different ways? That tells you something.” But, Wilson added, with the firmness of someone making hard choices she believes in: “I want to be super responsible about my relationship to the Greek text. I want to be saying, after multiple different revisions: This is the best I can get toward the truth.”

>66 GardenOfForkingPaths: >59 cronshaw: I believe Odysseus’ πολύτροπος (and the epics as a whole) require a broader understanding of the age. The specific word is tied with μήτις and in my opinion cannot be captured literally. Metis signifies a kind of practical intelligence, especially in difficult or challenging situations. It also appears in the Iliad, in the chariot race where Antilochus, son of Nestor, uses underhanded tactics to gain an advantage over Menelaus. Knowing that his horses are slower, he forces Menelaus off the track in a narrow pass, manipulating the situation rather than relying on sheer speed or skill (which is frowned upon).

It’s no surprise that Odysseus’ spying and deceptive behavior in book 10 of Iliad, where he lies about his intentions and kills the enemy, has been argued by scholars to be a later addition. It contrasts with the honor-driven narrative and heroic ideals of the time. My point is that Odysseus is not always judged favorably in the Iliad, as his cunning goes against the concept of honor (κλέος), which embodies the Iliad hero (Achilles’ quest for kleos is a key theme). The prominent hero prototype, Hercules, even gets his name from Hera + kleos; the one who achieved glory (from the trials set for him) by Hera.

In essence, μήτις was looked down upon in Iliad, but was revered in Odyssey, where cunning and resourcefulness are celebrated as essential survival skills in the face of adversity. If anything, Odysseus reflects a shift in heroic ideals, where practical intelligence and adaptability take precedence over brute strength and physical courage. Or, if you will, this represents a broader cognitive and cultural shift.

Centuries later, Sophocles re-examines the Iliad hero, embodied in Ajax, in his tragedy of the same name. Not surprisingly, this is done through the eyes of Odysseus, as Sophocles questions whether this hero prototype should still be admired or condemned.

A word for word translation cannot capture the complexity as it lacks cognitive context.

>65 InVitrio: I really liked it - both poetic and accessible. Maybe a few lines a week and see how far it goes? :)

>67 bacchus.: Fascinating, thank you so much for taking the time to explain! So it seems like I am reading into that word the possibility of a negative connotation that wouldn't have existed for people in ancient Greece. In that sense, do you feel that "complicated" also risks being too negative - like a moral judgement from our own age that doesn't acknowledge the text's unequivocal reverence for Odysseus craft and wiles?

I don't think I will ever read the opening page in the same way again. The multiple layers surrounding this single word show what a complex task any translator faces.

>65 InVitrio: bravo! Did you channel Messi's metis there?

>66 GardenOfForkingPaths: interesting interview, thanks.

>67 bacchus.: most fascinating insights, thank you! Perhaps the northern English word 'canny' could be used to translate polytropos in this context with the sense of cunning and resourcefulness of metis you mention (though it hardly belongs to an epic register). I can better appreciate why Fitzgerald chose 'skilled in all ways of contending' and Fagles the more poetic 'of twists and turns', even if neither fully expresses what you describe. Green's 'resourceful' still feels the most aptly succinct to me here. Which translation above do you most prefer for that line?

>68 GardenOfForkingPaths: I liked how Wilson put it the interview you quoted: “The fact that it’s possible to translate the same lines a hundred different times and all of them are defensible in entirely different ways”.

In my ears (as a Greek speaker), τρέπω (verb) means to turn as in to change, but τρόπος (noun), in modern Greek more so, can also mean method, a way of doing something - so polytropos for me is a man of many methods, resourceful in that he has many ways of: doing things / changing course / navigating the twists of fate.

>69 cronshaw: I think we agree. Fitzgerald carries more context, while Fagles sounds more epic (but is open to misinterpretation, I believe), and Green reduces it but captures it as closely as possible with a single word. Fitzgerald is the closest to the truth in my view, but as an already avid reader of the epics, if I were to read Odyssey in English, I think I would enjoy Fagles more.

This is a major reason why I love this group - where, other than here, can you find such a discussion on the internet?

>20 bacchus.: Well, sure, plenty of scholars would agree with you. But I will boldly maintain that they are wrong. I think people are too quick gloss over the difficult aspects of the Odyssey. The second nekuia, for example, is often dismissed as unimportant or maybe even a later interpolation, but I think that's a mistake. I'm definitely not saying that the Iliad isn't also an amazing piece of literature. In fact, I get the impression that maybe I like it more than you do. The way you talk about the Iliad "as a view into the ancient psyche" reminds me of how I would talk about other (less) old texts like the Song of Roland or the Nibelungenlied, which I find hard to get a lot out of except as historical texts. But, for me at least, both Homeric epics have aged much better and I get as much out of them as I do out of Shakespeare and other (somewhat) more contemporary literature. (The Greek texts I struggle to appreciate properly are the plays of Aeschylus, not only because the language is so hard, but I find the formality of the drama difficult to overcome.)

I have no hope of either of us convincing the other. I just wanted to throw out a contrary viewpoint, since you stated yours so authoritatively and I feel the Odyssey deserves more love.

I've only read excerpts of the Wilson translation. It seems serviceable for a modern audience and I'm glad it exists and will bring new readership to these works. For most people on this forum, you won't have any trouble with one of the older translations and in that case, you'll probably get more out any of the older ones. It's been a while since I've read Homer in translation, but I recall really liking the Stanley Lombardo versions, which haven't been mentioned here yet. They are similar in tone to the Fagles, but I recall the diction being a bit more interesting. I find Fagles somewhat dull.

>72 CabbageMoth: I do love both epics but it’s challenging to express a holistic view in such a small space. But I do find the cognitive aspect of Iliad very interesting indeed.

I believe one of the main reasons Aeschylus is hard to digest in text is due to his heavy use of the chorus, which makes for dense reading. Sophocles and Euripides use the chorus less, and the plot moves more quickly through character interactions.

In any case, and I think we might agree on this :), tragedies were meant to be performed and experienced, not to be read. The combination of music, choreography, and visual spectacle in the staging of these plays adds layers of meaning and emotion that the text alone cannot capture.

>70 bacchus.: The thing with τρόπος is that it can also mean a turning-post, or a shift in fortune. But the twistiness in Odysseus' nature is not going to be carried in τρόπος. That would be a different word - a variant of στρέφω. Which makes Odysseus less in control of his actions than he was in the Iliad - as of course the Odyssey bears out. I think the "cunning" family of translations lose the sense of the word.

My fun hypothesis of book 10 is that this is a bonus track on the Homer Greatest Hits CD. The Iliad and Odyssey, in their full forms, could scarcely ever be performed by a rhapsode; it would take at least a week of feasting to get it done, more likely longer. But as the text seems to be more or less contemporaneous with the evolution of the Greek alphabet (Milman Parry's work suggests the Peisistratean recension is Athenian propaganda), I can sort of imagine an early scribe going to the greatest of the oral poets and asking for his two best stories, taken to their fullest length. After all, Homer could easily do one or two bits of a story over a one night stand; the funeral games or the mission to Achilles, for instance.

And at some point, when he had delivered the Iliad, someone sussed that nobody had recorded the story of Rhesos, so either Homer dictated it separately, or the bardic schools re-composed it. Rhesos has many odd features which are not in sync with the rest of the Iliad (which is remarkably uniform), in fact the very story itself has no links with anything else and comes a bit out of nowhere. Smacks of an individual 45 that was originally not on the full 33...

>74 bacchus.: I agree entirely! The choruses in Aeschylus aren't the only challenge, but they are probably the most significant. Indeed it's amazing that any of these plays work as well as they do in the form of reading material. The loss of the music, in particular, must make such a difference.

>75 InVitrio: My fun hypothesis is that book 10 is Homer's evil plot to make the audience as frustrated as the Greek armies waiting for Achilles to come back into the plot. Plotwise, it's a pretty pointless interlude, but it really drives home what a mess the rest of the "heroes" are. And I find the characterization of Odysseus there consistent with the one in the Odyssey; I don't think he comes out looking especially admirable in either.

>73 CabbageMoth: thanks for the note about Lombardo. His translations weren't on my radar. According to some excerpts and comments on a Reddit thread, he seems to come in for similar criticism to that directed at Wilson:

... I don't like them, personally. He takes a lot of liberties with the text without producing good English poetry to make up for it. Tonally his translation is often matey and unheroic e.g. Diomedes calling Paris a "sissy", horses running "at a pretty good clip" ...

And:

Lombardo is very colloquial, which may be to some people's taste but for my money eviscerates the tone and beauty of the original. Wilson's translations are similarly dumbed-down. ...

Quotes by different commenters on the same thread here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/classics/comments/16wo8wq/are_stanley_lombardos_transla...

I guess this means no Fagles Aeneid.

>79 Noel_G: FS already did Fagles' Aeneid as an LE back in 2010. Unfortunately, FS never published an SE version of it.

Plug to the Fairclough translation of The Aeneid. Really enjoyed reading this in my LOEB Greek and Latin volumes.

>60 LesMiserables: No, I am not remotely "inclined to agree". As others on this thread have pointed out - and as I was to some extent aware having read several reviews of her work - there is a lot of thought, skill and consideration gone into Wilson's work. The fact you dislike it, or prefer "the accepted greats" is besides the point, and speaks to your judgement and taste. I'll stick to mine, thanks. The supposed unworthiness of this version being done by FS - it's popular, it's for TikTokers, it's "high school English" blah blah - is also a matter of opinion, and to be expected given the general tone of these boards.

I presume you are trying to be funny suggesting Wilson's academic and publishing career is due to her being a nepo baby?

For what it’s worth, Wilson’s translation has an extensive introduction where she explains her guiding policy for the translation. I’d recommend reading it. In short, the modern language is an intentional decision to bring the reader closer to the text. The iambic pentameter (thanks to Shakespeare, the closest English equivalent to an “epic meter”) gives the text a sense of rythm that many other translations lack.

For me, it works. The story feels fresh in a way none of the other translations quite match. I’m happy to see Wilson’s translation picked up by Folio.

>78 abysswalker: interesting! I remember liking the Lombardos as poetry, but I don’t seem to own them so I can’t check easily.

Fantastic discussion here, and thanks to the scholars of the board for their insights! I personally think I would be quite content with this translation (especially in a collection already containing others). My main reservation with this edition so far is the artwork. I'll withhold judgement there until some finished pieces are released, however.

I would love to see some other classic Greek works get this treatment as well. In particular Seven Against Thebes, which has so much scope for bravura poetry and striking verbal character sketches. And agreement that it would be lovely to see some comedies get equal attention too, especially the incomparable Aristophanes.

>75 InVitrio: My fun hypothesis of book 10 is that this is a bonus track on the Homer Greatest Hits CD.

Hah, I’ll reuse this :)

>75 InVitrio: The thing with τρόπος is that it can also mean a turning-post, or a shift in fortune. But the twistiness in Odysseus' nature is not going to be carried in τρόπος. That would be a different word - a variant of στρέφω. Which makes Odysseus less in control of his actions than he was in the Iliad - as of course the Odyssey bears out.

Indeed, πολύστροφος is a common word, in modern Greek at least.

I get the sense that Odysseus has more agency in his actions in Odyssey, despite the divine interventions. In contrast, the Iliad is more orderly, rigid and hierarchical. It’s rooted in older values like honor, glory and most importantly (when comparing to Odyssey that is) fate.

This becomes clearer when comparing Odysseus to Achilles as opposed to Odyssey’s Odysseus to Iliad’s Odysseus. Achilles’ fate is unavoidable and predetermined; he passively accepts it early on, which is what gives him the tragic hero quality.

Odysseus is still bound by his ultimate fate, but the journey itself is full of “twists and turns”. He navigates within the limits of fate, but he actively engages with it. For me, Achilles’ fate seems inevitable and static whereas Odyssey explores a more nuanced interaction with fate - maybe the “shift in fortune” you mention above hints to that quality.

It's the contrast right in the opening lines - indeed opening word (and something that Pope gets right, the other translators do not); the first word in Greek I think has to be the first word in translation. Because it's a counterpoint to the Iliad. Which is about wrath (mēnis). While the Odyssey is about a man.

And note that Odysseus destroys Troy (well, with some mates); that's down to him. He was polymētis Odysseus. But in the Odyssey he cannot even save his men through his own agency. His men destroy themselves by sacrilege. Conquering Troy is within his power; bringing one man home is not because the gods take against him. He was Fate's instrument in the Iliad; he is Fate's plaything in the Odyssey.

But...because he is much-cunning...he STILL gets home when nobody else does. And when he gets home, he kicks ass. He's presented with impossible situations and gets out of them. Continuously. Even when he's shacked up in the literal paradise of a desert island with a hottie...

>87 InVitrio: To be precise Iliad does not go into the sack of Troy, nor mentions the Trojan horse so I wouldn’t attribute any of those to Iliad’s Odysseus. These events are first mentioned in Odyssey. It’s quite possible, and my belief, that the epics were conceived far apart, as the differences between the two are stark.

EDIT:
To make my view more clear, if we suppose that the epics were conceived far apart, say Iliad close to the time of the Trojan War (or in any case, close to the end of the heroic age represented in the epic) and Odyssey a century or so later, then by the time Odyssey was composed, Greek society had probably undergone profound changes, including the collapse of palatial God-King centers and the diaspora of populations. The themes of Odyssey, such as the instability of home and the unpredictability of the gods, could be seen as reflecting the psychological and existential concerns of a post-Mycenaean world. While the story keeps a narrative continuum, the poets who conceived these epics could have been very different in their cognitive outlooks.

I would definitely keep this discussion in mind when I read the Odyssey again.

>80 CJDelDotto: Thanks, CJDelDotto. I missed it!

>88 bacchus.: Iliad is supremely clever on the Trojan War - it's more or less three days of action. Robert Graves had the odd hypothesis that the Odyssey was by Homer's daughter because it is more householdy (odd conclusion given Calypso). Others - de Selincourt, I think - put the Odyssey down as Homer's old age.

Linguistic evidence though suggests both are in the same sort of milieu, they're 500 years after the roughly equivalent Troy was destroyed. But doubtless bards sang songs about it and the tradition went down through the years for later poets to take on. There are some startling things (like the tower-shield) which are anachronistic at the time of the poems, but within "epic" time.

Not sure if this has already been discussed but apparently it will be a box set: https://www.instagram.com/p/DAdluqQCd6g/?img_index=1

I believe "stamped cloth with foil" refers to the box but I could be wrong.

>91 BooksFriendsNotFood: Yes I think your right and it refers to the clamshell box mentioned. I also think a clamshell box would indicate an LE rather than an SE.

Thank you to all who have contributed to this wonderful discussion!

I have found it fascinating to compare corresponding passages in different translations. For the Odyssey I own the Pope (Easton Press), Lattimore (version from undergrad), Fitzgerald, Fagles (Folio), Lombardo, Mitchell, and Wilson. Frankly what I "prefer" varies somewhat depending on the particular passage and in some cases I do like the Wilson version. That said, if I had to choose one translation only, it would be Fagles. And I think that the FS hit a home run with their edition so I am not sure whether I will be interested in the 2025 Wilson edition. Will need to see the whole package . . .

I'm not fond of what I've read of the translation, and the preliminary drawings are rather offputting. But I know that those are not the final version, so it will be interesting to see what those will look like. Still, it's most likely not one for me since I already have Fagles.

>56 FitzJames: Thanks for the heads up!

Does anyone know if Mendelsohn will translate The Iliad too?

The Wilson translation is atrocious.

>95 Inceptic: Based on what Mendelsohn says in this interview, I'd be quite surprised if he decided to translate The Iliad:

https://humanities.uchicago.edu/articles/2024/04/author-and-odyssey-translator-d...

>95 Inceptic: The Wilson translation is atrocious.Oh! How could you say this? Don’t you know that this is an outstanding work of skill? ;)

>90 InVitrio: Indeed linguistic evidence can tell little about the true age of the epics. The earliest text fragments we have are centuries after they were written down, and the language must have changed considerably over time with many amendments made in the process. The ancient Greek text translators use today is quite distant from what was written down in the 8th century BC or so, and even further from what the bards originally sang, possibly up to a millennium earlier. Even if we had the original texts as Homer wrote them, they would still represent a certain latest version of the time. Over generations, bards added new elements from their own era, making the epics living songs that kept evolving, rather than a static story conceived all at once.

The mention of tower shields is interesting. I’m clueless in weaponry and had no idea. There are also other obvious “modern” oddities scattered throughout, such as iron weapons, even though the stories are supposed to be set in the late Bronze Age.

There is also the boar tusk helmet, which is Mycenean era, again an anachronism.

There are some key linguistic things in there though that are absolute giveaways, because no copyist is going to re-invent them by mistake; they must be good copies from the original text lineage. The propaganda story was that the epics were written down for the first time in Athens under the dictator Peisistratos (6th century BC-ish); linguistic evidence disproves that, because, for the hexameter to work, you have to have the letter F (digamma - the equivalent of "w") in there (best example: woinos, instead of oinos, for wine). Which Greek had pretty much lost by then. One of the contemporary published editions - I think the Teubner, certainly not the Oxford - even puts the digamma back.

Plus there are archaic bits of grammar in the Iliad and Odyssey which are not there in later centuries (e.g. Mycenean form of the masculine singular genitive).

Also the hapax legomena - words used once - are giveaways about the antiquity of the text, even as copied later; scribes were copying words that literally nobody knew exactly what they meant any more. Copying will always introduce errors but that's what textual criticism is for. :) We're of course way better off for Homer with that than we are with the tragedians and comedians.

>96 CJDelDotto: Great find, thanks!

>97 LesMiserables: Lol!

Regarding contemporary versions of Homer, I mentioned my hope that FS eventually does editions of Walcott's Omeros and Logue's War Music. I'd like to add that I'd also love to see FS do Alice Oswald's two responses to The Iliad and The Odyssey, namely, Memorial and Nobody, respectively. Publishing editions of Walcott, Logue, and Oswald would go a long way in expanding FS's catalog to include contemporary poetry.

I apologize if this is slightly off-topic, but I am planning to re-read The Odyssey and possibly The Iliad soon. Given the apparent expertise in this thread, I was wondering if anyone has a particular companion text or commentary they might recommend to a general reader. A cursory internet search suggests there are a number of texts out there which provide more historical, cultural, or linguistic context -- Caroline Alexander's "The War That Killed Achilles" sounded interesting. There is such a wealth of scholarship on these texts, and I think I'd appreciate them more if I could read an expert analysis alongside the original works. If relevant, I plan to read the E.V. Rieu translation as revised by his son.

>102 indianabones: I'm no classicist, but I'd definitely read Simone Weil's famous essay "The Iliad, or The Poem of Force" after finishing The Iliad.

>104 Lausbance: Welcome to FSD!

>102 indianabones: A.A. Long’s Greek Models of Mind and Self is a fascinating exploration of how the concepts of identity and selfhood evolved in Ancient Greece. While the epics are referenced, it’s not a commentary - the scope of Long’s research extends beyond that, offering a wider examination of notions of the self. If anything, it offers a fresh perspective on how to approach the characters of the epics.

Best introduction to how the poems were composed is Adam Parry's preface to the Making of Homeric Verse, which is basically a collection of his father Milman's papers. Available on the Internet Archive.

There are two companion books written especially to accompany Lattimore's translations - that for the Iliad by Malcolm Willcock (Univ of Chicago), and the Odyssey by Peter Jones (Bristol Classical Press). They're the halfway house towards more scholarly editions and explanations.

>103 CJDelDotto:
>106 bacchus.:
>107 InVitrio:

Thank you all very much for your kind recommendations! It looks like my university library has many of these texts, so I will be sure to check them out. I was really fascinated by the discussion of the Ancient Greek thinking regarding individuality versus divinity, so the A.A. Long book appears to be right up my alley. The Parry & Weil works also look interesting. Thanks again!